Why would somebody who works for Joe Gibbs Racing stoop to sticking magnets on the bottom of the accelerators of the No. 18 and No. 20 Nationwide Series cars, hoping to keep NASCAR from getting a true reading on horsepower test when the engine was put on the chassis dyno after Saturday's race at Michigan?
I don't know.
And I don't care.
The magnets, which acted like door stops to keep the throttle from being opened 100 percent, were there. Joe Gibbs Racing is responsible for everything that's in or on its race cars. Under NASCAR rules, the crew chief is held responsible for the actions of his team.
So when NASCAR lowers the penalty boom on the teams next week, crew chief Jason Ratcliff on the No. 18 and Dave Rogers on the No. 20 should be suspended for the rest of the season.
NASCAR can and most likely will fine the team and deduct points, and that's entirely proper. But there has to be a clear message sent for such a blatant effort to subvert NASCAR's efforts to keep the racing fair.
I know some people think NASCAR was wrong to take horsepower away from Toyota's Nationwide Series teams a few weeks ago. Maybe you can construe that, if you're so inclined, into some justification for somebody at JGR to try to fudge the numbers with NASCAR testing cars again after Saturday's race.
But now that they've been caught - and because the same thing was done on two cars let's, please, not have anybody say this was simply some kind of mistake - whoever did this has placed a cloud over everything the Gibbs Nationwide teams have done this year.
Fair or not, that's reality.
Some people will go so far as to say it taints what Gibbs cars have done in Cup racing, but I don't buy that. The engine package is different between the two series. But if you are predisposed to believe that cheating happens, what happened after Saturday's race indicates that at least somebody who works at JGR is willing to break the rules to get ahead. (And no, before you say it, nobody was "bending" the rules here.
This was cheating, pure and simple.) That's not something any team should want to be associated with.
Do I think Ratcliff and/or Rogers had anything to do with how or why this was done?
I don't know.
And I don't care.
It does not matter. The rule is they're responsible. If J.D. Gibbs, the team's president, wants to fire somebody who admits to being responsible for this that's fine. From the NASCAR perspective, though, Ratcliff and Rogers are the responsible parties. They need to pay the price and NASCAR needs to make an example of them.
I am SO tired of hearing that "if you're not cheating, you're not trying."
No, if you're cheating, you're cheating.
Sunday, August 17, 2008
NASCAR has yet another chance to send a message on cheating
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David I completely understand your arguement. However, Toyota and in reality JGR was penelized for following the rules with the new spacer. They were neutered, what were they suppossed to do? I don't believe thy were cheating, but I do believe that they found HP in something new. So instead of admitting they found more power and letting tha talking heads of Nascar take that away, they tried to mask it. Is that wrong? I don't know.
The NASCAR culture has been very accepting of cheating. I've heard it blamed on the roots of
NASCAR-bootleggers outrunning the law. But the time has come to let go of that thinking and admit that cheating is wrong. So much of our beloved sport is centered on love of family, God & country. Let's not turn a blind eye to this episode and call it 'just racin'.
And how exactly did the magnets improve the performance of the cars?? Answer: In no way whatsoever. Please don't throw this in the same league as Jack's (99 team) mystery oil cooler lid bolts failure and Chad's (48 team) non-concentric track bar bolts. Those were done intentionally to improve performance and to gain and unfair advantage. The magnets? They were done to prevent NASCAR from determining if a horsepower advantage exists for the Gibbs cars. And advantage, by the way, that are being obtained by completely legal means -- Ingenuity and hard work.
Why did it not surprise me that Poole would immediately jump on the band wagon of "fire the crew chiefs, suspend them forever, etc." JD Gibbs admitted the ultimate responsibility falls on him for what happens on that team...so does Poole want Gibbs suspended from the track for the rest of the yr? To use a word Poole really likes...ABSURD!
If, in fact it comes to light to Gibbs that BOTH crew chiefs were aware of the offense, then yes...fire them, suspend them, whatever...but before you go and issue the penalties, at least convict the right person(s).
If a baseball player is using drugs to enhance performance, and is caught, do they fire the coach?
Jeez Poole....wait til the investigation is at least completed and Gibbs finds out all the details before you the judge issues out the death penalty. Gibbs will accept what ever the penalty is, without argument....but in this case, it is entirely possible it was done with out the crew chiefs knowledge...and if that proves to be the case, base a judgment on that. the teams will pay Im sure and rightly so, but unless you know alot more than what you wrote in this blog, you should wait for the facts to come out before pulling the "crew chief" firing squad out.
hmmmmm....wonder if Moody would agree with that?
Why was Toyota penalized for building a better engine WITHIN NASCARS ETCHA-SKETCH EULEBOOK? Necause CERTAIN Team Owners thats why. Maybe those complaining owners should woek a little harder
How did the magnets improve performance? Are you kidding me? Seriously man, everyone knows the magnets allow your biggest rival to come in first. Geez, where you been?
anon - "And how exactly did the magnets improve the performance of the cars?? Answer: In no way whatsoever."
Geesh... just how out of touch can you be? What gives you the idea the object was to "improve" performance?
What is it about placing something under the Go Peddle so it can't be fully depressed during a dyno test do you not understand?
Obviously one helluva lot!!!
For the record I'll predict a 150-200 pts reduction and the "normal" 6 week suspension.
I'll also say if it can be determined by Gibbs precisely who was the culprit he'll/they will be jobless shortly after.
I am sure the individuals responsible for this were so tired of hearing the crying owners who could not compete with them, they attempted to hide what they had in fear of hearing more crying. It is interesting that cup crew chiefs have cheated many times and they are probably still are, but they work for other organizations. I agree that cheating should not be acceptable, but it continues to win races; not to just hide from crying owners who can't keep up. Not surprised David you want to hang the Gibbs crew chiefs though.
Marc - "Geesh... just how out of touch can you be? What gives you the idea the object was to "improve" performance?"
Nothing gives me that idea. Did you read the rest of my post? In fact, my point was precisely the opposite.
Marc - "What is it about placing something under the Go Peddle so it can't be fully depressed during a dyno test do you not understand?"
I fully understand why it was done and said so in my post -- to "prevent NASCAR from determining if a horsepower advantage exists for the Gibbs cars".
Again, did you read my post?
My suggestion is simply don't lump this into the same caliber of cheating violation as fabricating a non-concentric track bar bolt, building a hydraulic device to move the rear window during qualifying or any of the other 7 violations that Knaus has been suspended/fined for in his crew chief career. Nor does it compare to the illegal fuel additive that the 55 team was caught using at Daytona last year (which, by the way, NASCAR never fully disclosed).
Those infractions were done with the absolute knowledge that what was being done was not only illegal, but would provide an immediate advantage over the competition.
If the Gibbs cars enjoy any type of horsepower advantage, it has been obtained up to this point through means within the boundaries of the NASCAR rule book (unless their inspectors have missed something). And what the person (or persons) were attempting to do was mask that advantage. Using a poker analogy, they were attempting to bluff and conceal their true cards. However they did it in a way that broke the rules. Conversely, the other violations I referenced above by the 48 and 55 teams were akin to being caught with an ace up their sleeves.
Whoever did this was wrong, no doubt. And most importantly to JGR, they acted immorally and will be dealt with accordingly. It's a shame the other teams in the garage that are so quick to jump on the JGR bashing bandwagon wouldn't deal with it the same way given the same situation.
What I don't understand is if someone at JGR has found a way to gain back the reported 15-horsepower reduction that the rule change creates, why wouldn't they want that known by everyone in the garage area?
Seems to me if I was a real smart engine guy (and Mark Cronquist IS just that) and was working within the rules and was able to build a better mousetrap, then I'd be damn proud of my work and would want it on display for the world to see. At the very least, it would help at contract time.
But, David is right. The crew chiefs are responsible for the actions of their crew members, and a message has to be sent. JGR also needs to identify the person/people who actually placed the magnet(s) on the accelerators and send 'em to the unemployment line.
I'm the biggest JGR/Stewart/Busch/Hamlin/Logano apologist on the planet, but this one's gonna hurt.
And it should.
To be honest, the only appropriate way to handle this situation would be to ensure that the Gibbs cars are not on the track come Friday in Bristol. Gibbs and his people know that they have an distinct advantage in the Nationwide Series, and they apparently will go to any length the hide that. NASCAR simply did what they had to do to make for competitive racing, when they scaled back the horsepower for the Nationwide Toyotas. Going to greater lengths to circumvent these new rules is nothing more than a slap in the face of NASCAR, the fans, and the other competitors on the track. As a race fan don't you want to see equal cars on the track? I certainly do.
So I agree with David Poole (for once). NASCAR needs to lower the boom on JGR.
I am on the fence on this one. I do not condone cheating, and as a Michael Waltrip fanatic, I had a moral struggle last year. But I can also see JGR's issue. They work within the rules, and have an engine that makes 15 or so more horsepower. Nascar penalizes their hard work by giving them a different spacer. JGR works and finds the HP again, and Nascar can't wait to dyno the cars again. Everyone here knows that if JGR had gained that HP back, Nascar would have immediately made them use yet a smaller tappered plate. Nascar seems to want to penalize hard work. I think this goes deeper than the magnets (to hold the throttle partly closed). It goes to the fact that Nascar does in fact have an "Etch-a-Sketch" rulebook. I mean please.....someone tell them it will not kill the sport if someone other than Hendrick and Chevy does well. Darrell Waltrip once said that Junior Johnson standing in the pits with one leg propped up on the wall was worth 1/10th a lap...could it be Kyle Busch that is the difference and not the engine. I would prefer that Nascar just make sure the engine is within the parameters of the rule book. If Chevy, Ford and Dodge are down on HP, work to find it.
You mean send a message like they sent Dale Jr.? For passing the pace car under caution at the last Michigan race. And then have the balls to tell the drivers the following week they cant do what he did. What do you call that? Is it cheating or ass kissing? Explain that one. You have no rules in Nascar. All you reporters act like you give a damn about the sport. Why don't you write the truth? Nascar has their boys. Rule only count for certain drivers.
David, I will be one to say that JGR was cheating (and I am one of their fans) but from the penalty phase, I am in favor of consistency. Don't cut their throat because they are Toyota (like many other people in NASCAR wish to do). Wheither you like Toyota in the Trucks, Nationwide, or Cup Series, if NASCAR allows them in then be consistent with the penalties. I think the general rule for crew chiefs has been six week suspension, not the rest of the season.
I'm a JGR fan but I have to admit they did something they shouldn't have done. Was it cheating? No. It wasn't unless what they were trying to keep NASCAR from finding on the dyno was achieved illegally. But the magnets themselves weren't cheating since they didn't directly help the performance of the cars. They were just something that shouldn't have been there.
Why they were there I don't know. Obviously JGR has gotten some, if not all of that horsepower they lost back after that rule change. The question is, did they do it legally and just didn't want NASCAR finding out for fear of another rule change or did they do it illegally. My guess is the former and not the latter but either way it was a big mistake to put the magnets there for the dyno test.
I don't think they should suspend anyone for the rest of the season, but 8 races and a $200,000 fine for the CC's of both the 18 and 20 is probably fair.
"My suggestion is simply don't lump this into the same caliber of cheating violation as fabricating a non-concentric track bar bolt, building a hydraulic device to move the rear window during qualifying or any of the other 7 violations that Knaus has been suspended/fined for in his crew chief career. Nor does it compare to the illegal fuel additive that the 55 team was caught using at Daytona last year (which, by the way, NASCAR never fully disclosed)."
Hang on.
I need to pick my slacked jaw up after reading such abject stupidity.
The only difference is this kind of cheating was undertaken to achieve a competitive advantage for later in the year as opposed to now. Either way, it's STILL CHEATING.
Other teams might be cheating for all we know. It's just that these two crew chiefs got caught.
Mike In Columbus, here is what they were doing - they broke the rules, blatantly. It can't be justified by saying "NASCAR shouldn't have taken away horsepower from the Toyotas" because NASCAR should ALWAYS take away excessive horsepower; racing is not about horsepower, it is about passing; teams know this by now but are too enamored of horsepower to get it.
The cheating ethos has been subtly rewarded forever by the lack of the one punishment that works - DISQUALIFICATION.
Personally, NASCAR has to send a message to the teams and make an example out of someone, and in this case it should be JGR. If this was a stand alone Nationwide team I don't believe the upcoming penalties would be as severe, but because they field teams in both of NASCAR's elite series it should and must be harsh.
It has nothing to do with whether or not they gained a performance advantage or not with the use of the magnets, it has everything to do with the fact that team members (who ultimately report to the crew chief) hampered with the final inspection of cars and allowing NASCAR to do their job.
NASCAR should suspend the crew chiefs and the crew members in question for the rest of the year. Fine each team $100,000, and not allow them to compete in the next 5 races.
This might sound extreme, but tampering with a NASCAR official's ability to do his job is a BIG deal.
What a great idea! Attaching Rare Earth magnets to back of the pedal to limit travel of the accelerator. Now JGR should patent this, install it in all street vehicles and increase the gas mileage nationwide. So this is what more drilling is all about? Nascar has become so boring that NPR Sunday repeats and I-485
racing is more exciting.
Anyone who comes on here and says that this is not a big deal should go find another sport to watch. It is blatant as it comes and should not be tolerated. I will easily come on board with a 5 race blockage from JGR cars from competing.
And for the person who said that maybe Kyle Busch is making the difference and not the car...well where the hell was Kyle Busch last year? You don't simply go from winning 1-2 races in a year, up to 8 by talent. Guys like Ryan Newman and Kasey Kahne have had monster years like that, not to be replicated. If you look at their seasons those years it is easy to identify that they had "found something" in terms of the cars performance. Come back to real life people....
Can anyone spot the hypocrite??
"Their ass needs to be kicked out of there. They're shiftless," Chevrolet team owner Richard Childress said of those responsible at JGR. "They (NASCAR) just need to do something."
"I'll say it's damn blatant," he said. "I'm surprised they got caught. When people get an advantage, they don't want to give it up and sometimes they go to extremes to keep from giving up an advantage, and that's just what they did."
-- Richard Childress 8/17/08
Todd Berrier, Crew Chief for the #29 Goodwrench Chevy, got caught red-handed, and admitted to rigging the fuel tank to appear full when, in fact, it only held 5 gallons of fuel.
When confronted about the violation, Berrier said, “If I had to do it again, I’d still (do) it to try to get away with it, because I know how I got caught.”
For that incident, Berrier was fined $25,000 and suspended for 4 weeks. Harvick was docked 25 championship points and owner Richard Childress was docked 25 owners’ points. Childress appealed the sanctions, and his appeal was DENIED.
-- RCR, March 2005
"I like to call it being competitive. I don't like to call it cheating."
--Richard Childress Feb. 2006
It is funny that people say GM/Ford/Chrysler should find more power, the problem is that Nascar allowed Toyota to run the same motor in both divisions but GM has to run the SB2 engine that was developed in the early 90's. Allow all teams to run the same motors in cup and there would be no issues, by the way the RO7 motor would be impacted by the same spacer requirement as Toyota. Anyone that say it is Kyle is nuts, the guy did not turn into superman in one year (hp advantages make even average drivers look like superman) and anyone that gets in the Gibbs Nationwide cars could win. You could pick a journeyman driver and win in either of those car. Simply put it is easy to get hp when all of your competitors are running motors that were created decades ago and as a manufacturer you could reverse engineer the best features and your competitors are handcuffed by the governing body. They cheated, it doesn't have to increase performance on the track, it decreased performance on the dyno and that is what it was intended to to, to prevent the governing body from detecting valid data.
Cheating by ingenuity is one thing, but when the Hendrick, RFR, and RCR cars were on the dyno they werent CHEATING. Jack Roush was right, Toyota is ruining nascar by having an ungodly budget, so much so that they try to hide their advantage. somethings going on in cup too, You JGR fans just wont admit it. IF CHEVY HAD 15 MORE HP THEYD DO THE SAME THING. Kyle busch won 2 races for HMS last year in the midst of the best year by ateam in 20 years, so dont say hes that good. Toyota is going to ruin Nascar. They thought cali and new york markets were so precious, but Bristol Martinsville and Charlotte Still kick their butt in ticket sales. Nascar likes making stupid decisions and allowing toyota in was another one. Enjoy it while you can Cheaters, youll get caught on the cup side too one day, then lets see what ya got to say
Ok, here's the deal, and it pains me to say so, but I AGREE with Poole. While cheating has a historical basis in NASCAR, it has also been a historical practice of NASCAR to "penalize" teams who work hard and gain an advantage thru hard work. (Example: The Elliott Brothers T-Bird) This is a new day and time in racing and actions such as those discovered with the magnets cannot go unpunished. If NASCAR truly desires to be taken seriously, then folks, its HAMMER TIME: Drop it.
I find it interesting how so many are defending JGR here for such a blatant act. Fans are blind.
"And how exactly did the magnets improve the performance of the cars?? Answer: In no way whatsoever."
Wrong. When you want to d something big and get away with it, you do something small and obvious so you get caught and then people are so worked up over it, that they miss the big one. The magnets didn't improve horsepower. they were designed to hide it. And for people to say they did this because nascar took horsepower away from them are probably the same people who say people commit crimes because the government won;t give them free handouts. get real. A crime is a crime is a crime. You can't justify it.
How would something not done on the track be cheating?
The issue here is NASCAR penalaizing teams that excel. Gibbs found something within the rules that made race cars go faster. NASCAR (at the urging of Rousch, I'm sure) changed the rules in the middle of the season, which removed the legal advantage (and cost Gibbs a bunch of money to comply with the new rule).
So now they sandbag on the tests, because they might have found something else. I don't blame them one bit.
Since the actions didn't effect racing, it isn't cheating, and there should be no penalty.
"I am SO tired of hearing that "if you're not cheating, you're not trying."
No, if you're cheating, you're cheating."
Mr. Poole, let me pass on this story from a friend of mine that used to be a team manager in the Grand-Am prototype class (a NASCAR-ran series).
They were always mid-pack or lower when they ran, partly due to the equipment they were using. They decide to pull out of the series when it made the prototype to Daytona Prototype switch.
So the team manager goes to another team owner that used to compete in Grand-Am as well and was always mid-pack. The manager notices things on their car that are "not to code", i.e. cheating. This other team owner then says yeah and then points out about a dozen things they do to the car that skirts around the rules. The team manager, who always did everything by the book and understands one reason why they lost, asked "who does these things?"
The response: "Everybody".
"So much of our beloved sport is centered on love of family, God & country."
Since when?
wow. you people who are claiming that this is OK because "toyota was penalized" or "it's not something that they did on the track" really need to think a little harder about what transpired here.
Mr. Poole is dead on here. These teams need severe penalties. Two reasons: they broke the rules and what they did was blatantly stupid and childish. By trying to pull this kind of thing on Nascar, you're basically saying: y'all are stupid and won't figure this out.
They were trying to sandbag the numbers, PERIOD. Whether it be to hide something new or get their original plate back, it doesn't matter! They were attempting to somehow improve their on track results. The fact that it wouldn't have helped them this weekend is moot.
"Ok, here's the deal, and it pains me to say so, but I AGREE with Poole. While cheating has a historical basis in NASCAR, it has also been a historical practice of NASCAR to "penalize" teams who work hard and gain an advantage thru hard work. (Example: The Elliott Brothers T-Bird) This is a new day and time in racing and actions such as those discovered with the magnets cannot go unpunished. If NASCAR truly desires to be taken seriously, then folks, its HAMMER TIME: Drop it."
I agree with this person. Here's my code of ethics for racing. If you cheat and are not caught, congratulations, you beat the rulesmakers. If you don't think mechanical ingenuity should be a part of racing, I have zero clue why you're a racing fan. However, if you attempt to cheat and get caught, you deserve the consequences of said action.
So the short version:
-Cheat and not caught, good job.
-Cheat and caught, here comes the hammer.
"How would something not done on the track be cheating?"
I can't believe the rationale of some people. There are very specific rules in NASCAR regarding setup, and there are rules for racing. Just because you broke a rule during post-race inspection (and yes, they did break the rules by rigging the pedal) doesn't mean it's not cheating. There are rules, they broke them. Plain and simple. Most of the penalties handed out are because of stuff NOT done on the track. Get in the game.
I keep reading from you people that you believe Gibbs found new horsepower legally. You don't know that. You don't know if they did it legally through hard work and ingenuity, you don't even know if they found any new horsepower. The fact is you are just speculating because you have nothing else to do. As long as we're speculating - maybe NASCAR let toyota run a newer larger engine than everyone else because they did so bad last year. Maybe toyota threatened to quit NASCAR. Maybe toyota sent the Japanese mafia to the France's home and threatened the whole family. Just stupid specualtion
"And for people to say they did this because nascar took horsepower away from them are probably the same people who say people commit crimes because the government won;t give them free handouts."
No, wrong analogy. It is more akin to the hard working stiff that gets creative on his taxes because he thinks the government penalizes him for being successful.
I'll bet if Mr. Poole and the others here that want to push the nuclear button on JGR ever had their tax returns thoroughly examined, they would rethink their "cheating is cheating" mentality.
I find it hysterical that Richard Childress is complaining about cheating. Like Robin Miller said on wind tunnel last night "Of course he is complaining, it has been a while since he has been caught" or something to that effect. At least the oil cooler lid debacle has kept Jack Roush's pie hole shut for now on this. While I am not condoning cheating, name me one team that has not had an issue this year. How many times has Hendrick Motorsports shown up with cheated up race cars. Some times they are not even allowed on the track to qualify, but yet because they are locked into the top 35, they get to race and a legal racecar was sent to the house. Nascar has some serious problems coming to a head. Last week only 44 cars showed up to participate. Several teams are on life support because of sponsorship issues. Is Yates racing going to be back next year without sponsorship? Is MWR and Ganassi going to merge down to a 4 car team? I see only problems ahead if something does not give.
"You don't know if they did it legally through hard work and ingenuity, you don't even know if they found any new horsepower."
And we don't know because NASCAR thinks we the fans are babies and wouldn't know what to do with the dyno numbers if they released them.
And they also must think the media are a bunch of idiot parrots that should only report what NASCAR tells them. Heaven forbid a reporter be supplied with hard information so that he/she could draw their own conclusion.
They apparently feel the same way about the rule book. Hell, do we even know for sure if JGR broke a rule with the magnets? Nope, we are just speculating they did because The Kremlin, er, NASCAR said so.
I want to know who ratted them out. Now Lee White, Toyota, and JGR are proven liars and cheats, but to me the real problem is JGR, RCR,Roush, Hendrick should not be in the Nationwide Series anyway. It's the cup owners not the cup drivers that unfair competition.
I'm not a huge JGR fan, but has anyone determined that the magnets were put there AFTER the race, but before the dyno test? Maybe they found that the engine produced the best HP/torque numbers a few percent away from 100% throttle and ran the entire race with them there.
A V8 in a Toyota Camry is cheating right there! Also a V8 Impala and a Ford Fusion. If you cant buy it on Monday, you shouldnt be able to race it on Sunday!
N National
A Association of
S Stock
C Car
A Auto
R Racing
STOCK CAR!!!! May REAL RACING Rest In Peace.
Fireball Fan, it's irrelevent that a V8 is in a Toyota Camry, etc. Are they supposed to ban the Toyotas and the Chevrolets over it?
paul stagg, don't give JGR the benefit of the doubt here, because they found a horsepower advantage no one is supposed to have and to hide it they blatantly sabotaged a dyno test.
No, anonymous #31. You cite the Bill Elliott Thunderbird - it was not built to the rules, it was shrunken to 7/8 scale. Teams are not supposed to beat the rulesmakers, they're supposed to stick to the rulebook and worry only about getting their cars able to pass other cars - it's about passing, not raw speed.
I just have to say Wow to some of the fans here that are not equating what was found to be cheating. Bottom line is that there was something there that wasn't supposed to be there in an effort to get one over on NASCAR = cheating.
"Oh, but they are victims"...please.
If the Toyota corporate camp is throwing some much money at the sport to make them uber-competitive, why is Waltrip Racing mostly been at the"back of the pack" for most of the season? Even the best car they have is losing their sponsor (UPS)to Ford.
It's the brillance of the JGR engine shop to use good old American injnuity, drive, desire and know how to produce superior results. That's the American way. What sucks is Nascar's ever evolving minute by minute rule book and continued holding teams down and not allowing them to being the best they can be.
Throw away the damn rule book and "race what ya brung"
Suspend car owner and drivers for the remainder of the season.
I've got a feeling they learned this trick while using Chevys. It seems more like something someone at Hendrick would have come up with, anyway. Might explain why Chevy was so close in horsepower in the past with newer engines.
NASCRAP has officially entered the twilight zone.
We have race teams who build winning races cars legally and within NASCRAP specs, now cheating in order to prevent getting penalized again from NASCRAP for building winning race cars legally and within NASCRAP specs.
Do dee do doo...do dee do doo...
"A V8 in a Toyota Camry is cheating right there! Also a V8 Impala and a Ford Fusion. If you cant buy it on Monday, you shouldnt be able to race it on Sunday!
N National
A Association of
S Stock
C Car
A Auto
R Racing
STOCK CAR!!!! May REAL RACING Rest In Peace."
Dumbest post ever. I don't even need to refute your point about using V8's in cars that use 0 stock parts.
They should lose 2 wins and probation for the rest of the year and for the next year.What they did was a slap in the face of Nascar and they been cheating all year(in both series)and Nascar just now getting tired of it!!!!
Brilliance of JGR Shop? You're kidding, right? What about the brilliance of all them millions of dollars that Toyota has. That's got more to do with it than JGR. People say the other manufacturers should work harder. Well, Chevy is not allowed to run its lastest engine in The Nationwide-the RO7 Engine and yet people say let them catch up to Toyota. Remember, toyota is making unlimited profits while the other big three are struggling and they have plenty of money to throw around to Gibbs and the other teams. Did anyone notice how much better the Red Bull Team is this year in a Toyota. I believe they could have won Charlotte until a blown tire got them. Kyle Busch won I think four cup races in three years at Hendrick while Johnson and Gordon were winning lots more races and winning championships. It's mighty strange that now in a Toyota he's almost unbeatable and has won eight cup races this year and a total of sixteen in all the series driving Yotas. There have been four different drivers win in that twenty car this year including a rookie with what three or four starts before getting a win. Folks, I didn't need to see dyno results to know that the Toyotas had more horsepower. Like has been said, "a monkey could drive that car and win". And, thats almost the truth. Wonder how many times them magnets have been in the Gibbs Cars on the dyno this year including the cup cars? Will never know but for that team to suddenly be almost unbeatable shows me that they definitely have got a big advantage over the rest of the cars. Toyotas winning percentage in the cup, nationwide, and truck series is way over fity percent. Yep, over fifty percent! So one manufactuer who has been in the cup and nationwide series for a year and a half is dominating against three other makes. Folks, it just like Jack Roush said, and, i'm no Roush fan but what he said about them coming in and spending unlimited money and dominating is already coming true. The other makes cannot match their money and money buys speed, drivers, and teams. I read on Jayskis that Toyota had rented Nashville SPeedway seventeen times this year for testing. See what money buys? I know a lot of fans were upset at Chevy winning so many races last year, but think about it. Chevy has been in Nascar for a long time. They have a bunch of quality drivers and teams so you would expect them to win a lot. Now, look at Toyota in nationwide and cup racing for a year and a half and already dominating. As nascar fans, will you continue to support Nascar when it continues to be the Toyota Racing Series? Not me. This season would have been an almost complete Toyota Show except for a few wrecks and a blown tire here and there. Denny Hamlin dominating at Richmond before a bad tire. Tony Steward getting tapped at Bristol. Tony at New Hampshire getting caught up in pit strategy before the rain ended the race. Tony having a blown tire at Charlotte. Kyle also had a few blown tires that cost him more wins. So without a few things like this, Toyota would have made the other manufacturers look stupid in just a year and half in cup racing. Kyle is a good driver, but his Toyota is making him look way better than he really is. He never showed that at Hendrick driving them "powerful Hendrick Chevys", did he? Toyotas have had a horsepower advantage almost from day one. After the spring race at Atlanta last year the cars were dynoed. Guess who had the most horsepower-Dale Jarrett. Yep, according to the article on Jayskis. The winner that day was Jimmy Johnson. His engine had the least I believe of any engine they tested from the other makes. Nascar has been restricting horsepower for years in order to try and level the playing field. The Hemis in the Dodges and Plymonths were restricted because they was winning everything in the late sixties. Frankly, I don't believe that this was the first time these magnets have been used in the Gibbs Cars this year in both the Cup and Nationwide Series. Wanna bet if Mark Cronquist had anything to do with this that he won't be fired like anyone else would? And, he may have well known of this infraction before hand maybe even directing it to be done. Again, if you were a competing team and found out about this, how would you feel? Gibbs full well knew that Nascar wanted the cars engines to be about equal so the drivers and crews could determine who wins and not by an excessive horsepower advantage which the Gibbs Cars clearly had. If the Gibbs Cars didn't have such an advantage in the engine then why would you put a spacer on the throttle? They full well knew they had an advantage. Again, I've been saying all year that the Toyotas had an advantage and I did't need a dyno to tell me that. Anyone who has been watching and knows anything about racing could tell they had an advantage over the other makes.
anonymous #42, that MWR is uncompetitive says nothing about Toyota's horsepower and technology edge; all it says is that Michael Waltrip is verifiably insane and incompetent. The Truck Series and the 40-50% winning percentage the Toyotas have there says more about Toyota's program than MWR does; that kind of depth is what Toyota is striving for and at this rate they'll get it sooner rather than later.
And where are teams not being allowed to be the best they can be? That argument is one for increased restriction by the sanctioning body on the technology arms race - teams should never be allowed to outspend anyone. Hendrick and Roush have essentially bought their way to monopolizing the decade, and Toyota is now beating them at their own game.
Race what you brung is not an option; it died with Glenn Roberts if not before that. The sanctioning body needs to restrict the performance levels of the racecars more, not less.
I don't watch Nascar much anymore because of things like this. Not the cheating the handicapping. So team A makes a better car than team B & C under the standing Nascar rules. Team B & C should just go back to the shop and try to make a better car, but no, they penalize team A. Sorry, but if team B & C can't make a better car, too bad.
It is hard to believe that JD Gibbs, supposely the head of operators at JGR has no clue as to what his teams are doing. And Toyota--give us a break--you want to win it all so bad--Anyone checked out the 18 Sprint car---If you ask me--they should suspend the entire 18/20 Nationwide team for the rest of the season.
Cheating!!! this isn't cheating, the media labeled this all wrong, at best they interferred with TESTING, Nascar got this all wrong.
Hey David if JGR wants to race with spacers under the fuel pedal then so be it just make sure they come to the next race with them installed or stay home simple.
anon - "And for the person who said that maybe Kyle Busch is making the difference and not the car...well where the hell was Kyle Busch last year? You don't simply go from winning 1-2 races in a year, up to 8 by talent."
If that is the case then explain why Stewart and Hamlin have not had years close to what Busch has had? Do you actually believe any advantage given to Busch wouldn't be shared with the other two teams?
If you do I've got a trans-Pacific bridge to sell you.
Considering everyone, and I mean EVERYONE is looking at the same side of this coin, ponder this:
What if they weren't trying to hide an HP advantage, but were actually trying to show thru the magnets an excessive loss of HP due to the new spacer in an effort to gain back what was lost, i.e. revert back to the spacer as run before the reduction.
Also consider this was the first NNS event were HP mattered, Watkins Glen depends on driver skill and car handling not HP. MIS would be the perfect place to pull this trick if my speculation is correct.
anon - "I don't watch Nascar much anymore because of things like this. Not the cheating the handicapping. So team A makes a better car than team B & C under the standing Nascar rules. Team B & C should just go back to the shop and try to make a better car, but no, they penalize team A."
Then why did you ever start to become a fan?
That hasn't changed since 1949. A review of NASCAR history is in order "anon."
where in the rulebook does it actually say you can't put magnets on the gas pedal?
Well it is real easy. The reason for the spacers was to hide the extra horsepower. The extra horsepower is most likely a by product of rules violations that JGR wanted to avoid being caught at. Why doesn't NASCAR if they really want to control the competition, maintain the powerplants and issue random ones to the competitor when they arrive at event. Then we will find out who the real drivers are and the cheaters will fall to the back of the field. Jim - Danville, Indiana
I'm surprised no one has brought up another point. NASCAR's inspection process usually ends right then and there if something is found awry, if I'm not mistaken. What's to say the magnets weren't a distraction to keep them from looking at something much much larger. Isn't that what Bob Osbourne got whacked for in the past? They did something to Carl Edward's car so blatant (but not a big advantage), so they could get away with a minor violation somewhere else under the watchful eyes of the greatest officals in sports history. Regardless, I expect to see the good ole' 15k/6/120 handed down, and the organization placed on probation sport-wide until the end of the year.
Why is it the "anon's" by a wide margin lead the league in disjointed nonsensical comments?
Like this one for example: "where in the rulebook does it actually say you can't put magnets on the gas pedal?"
So what are you trying to say? That's it's ok to do something that would subvert the inspection process? That's it ok to place magnets to alter chassis dyno results? IF nothing else Section 12-4-A of the NASCAR Rule Book “Actions detrimental to stock car racing” well cover it nicely."
Sorry guy/gal, you lose on all counts.
And here's another one: "Well it is real easy. The reason for the spacers was to hide the extra horsepower. The extra horsepower is most likely a by product of rules violations that JGR wanted to avoid being caught at."
Why do you assume that, anti-Toyota or anti Gibbs bias maybe? NASCAR took both engines to N.C. until it's place on their dyno you have no way of assuming that, you're guessing.
It's just as possible because of the spacer they were ordered to use some lamebrain or multiple lamebrains decided not to mask increased hp, but to show an excessive loss of hp via use of the magnets in an effort to give NASCAR reason to return to the other less restrictive spacer.
And BTW, what proof do YOU have that Gibbs has been cheating or have an extraordinary amount of hp over the rest of the field.
The reality is they haven't, the test they made the decision on was based on a 3% difference and THAT was on a Gibbs. engine.
And here's more assumptions made with zero proof by yet another "anon." "Isn't that what Bob Osbourne got whacked for in the past? They did something to Carl Edward's car so blatant (but not a big advantage), so they could get away with a minor violation somewhere else under the watchful eyes of the greatest officals in sports history."
So, smart guy... what was that "minor violation" you claim was on the Edwards car.
Surely you wouldn't have made the claim without proof would you?ofavz
I am a Tony Stewart fan and have become a JGR fan over the years. I think NASCAR's punishment should be to make those two teams run with the magnets installed for the rest of the season. Fines and suspensions do not hurt these teams! Points do have an effect and that should be where NASCAR puts their focus.
This is the last thing I'll have to say on this. Ask yourself, is this Kyle Busch story good for NASCAR? yes. Is the fact that Toyota is killing them in all three series good publicity for NASCAR - yes. Finally does this all keep the Journalist dogs at bay and away from the Maurcia Grant story - yes.
I think everyone here is missing an important piece of the puzzle. And it is a disturbing one to think about.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the spacers would be illegal if it could be proved they were run in place during the race.
Even if proven to still be illegal, a more palatable explanation for their existence could have been made.
If they were used during the race, the dyno results would reflect actual race conditions and therefore it could be claimed no attempt was made to mask what the actual engine output was during the race.
Robin Pemberton, VP of competition for NASCAR, told ESPN that there was no way the spacers could have been added after the race was over.
One or more inspectors are assigned to the car on pit road immediately following the race. The inspectors take control of the car and push it to the dyno testing area. There is no way, he said, that a team member would have access to the car to add the spacers.
Using Pemberton's comments as "the out", the Gibbs organization could have claimed the spacers were in place during the race and used as throttle stops as a means to provide more forward bite off the corners. Afterall, every team in the garage complained all weekend about being loose.
But because the Gibbs owners and managers are stand-up people, they chose to be honest and claim responsibility for trying to subvert the rules. Even though Pemberton gave them an out, they chose truth over cover-up.
Can you imagine what the story would have been had it involved a Roush, Hendrick or Childress team?
Everyone here who can't imagine Hendrick or Jack Roush holding a press conference claiming the spacers were in place all along raise their hands. (Actually, I can imagine Jack claiming it to be sabotage and the evil Toyota empire was likely behind it.)
The disturbing part about all this is with the Gibbs admission comes the realization that the cars CAN be tampered with after the race. For some reason everyone seems to be glossing over the implications of that.
If the Gibbs team can do it, how many others that we know are prone to cheating have tried and succeeded?
This incident doesn't just cast a cloud over the Gibbs success this year. It has far more reaching implications.
Now we have to wonder how many cheated up cars have been on the track and then "fixed" after the race prior to inspection.
Marc, Tony and Denny have had several chances to win races this year in cup racing. SPecifically Bristol, New Hampshire, Richmond, Charlotte and several more places when either a tire or bump or pit strategy/Rain cost them victories. If not for these cicumstances the entire season would have been a Toyota runaway in just their second year in the sport. Also, both Denny, Tony, and even a rookie Logana in his what third start have won in the nationwide series. I do agree, if Gibbs Teams wants the spacers under the throttle, make them use them the rest of the year. I'll also bet this wasn't the first test that they were used in cup or nationwide testing. I'll bet you another thing, If Mark Cronquist had anything to do with this he won't be fired. Of course I'm sure Gibbs will try their best to exonerate him in order for him to remain their engine guru.
anon - "Marc, Tony and Denny have had several chances to win races this year in cup racing. SPecifically Bristol, New Hampshire, Richmond, Charlotte and several more places when either a tire or bump or pit strategy/Rain cost them victories. If not for these cicumstances the entire season would have been a Toyota runaway in just their second year in the sport"
And so...? Both Stewart and Hamlin are oin the same team in essence it would be a Gibbs "runaway" in just their first year in a Toyota.
barry in tenn - "I think everyone here is missing an important piece of the puzzle. And it is a disturbing one to think about."
Someones missing a piece... a piece of gray matter if you think the magnets were in place during the event.
Marc - "Someones missing a piece... a piece of gray matter if you think the magnets were in place during the event."
Exactly. That is why I said:
"The disturbing part about all this is with the Gibbs' admission comes the realization that the cars CAN be tampered with after the race. For some reason everyone seems to be glossing over the implications of that.
If the Gibbs team can do it, how many others that we know are prone to cheating have tried and succeeded?
This incident doesn't just cast a cloud over the Gibbs success this year. It has far more reaching implications.
Now we have to wonder how many cheated up cars have been on the track and then "fixed" after the race prior to inspection."
Monkeesfan said...
Mike In Columbus, here is what they were doing - they broke the rules, blatantly. It can't be justified by saying "NASCAR shouldn't have taken away horsepower from the Toyotas" because NASCAR should ALWAYS take away excessive horsepower; racing is not about horsepower, it is about passing; teams know this by now but are too enamored of horsepower to get it.
The cheating ethos has been subtly rewarded forever by the lack of the one punishment that works - DISQUALIFICATION.
Hmmm, I am confused.. I actually agree 100% with Monkeesfan on this one.
Folks, cheating is cheating, be it on the track or off... and an effort to subvert the inspection process is indeed CHEATING.
Please, stop making excuses why its ok for Toyota - or anyone else for that matter - to cheat. You may disagree with the NASCAR decision a few weeks ago to decrease Toyotas HP, but that does not give license to do what they did Saturday.
Poole is right on.. cheating is wrong, and it can not be tolerated. Lower the boom, hard.
Poole, once again you are 100% correct.
People say (like Evernham) that the 18 and 20 weren't breaking any rules with the magnets. Well, the mangets were there to attempt to hide their true horsepower. So, if they aren't following NASCAR's new tapper spacer rule, then the magnets were covering it up. Therefore, they were in deed cheating.
Yes, the magnets did not improve the performance, but they were used to try and cover up something that was.
Marc, exactly. Gibbs is the only quality team that is running the Toyotas. Red Bull/Michael Waldrip are not very good teams with any brand of car. But, have you noticed the Red Bull Team who have never ran very good have been running much better with the Toyotas this year even having chances to win I know at Charlotte before a tire blew out. So, there must be something to the Toyota advantage.
Foret the Money, Points, Etc. Just make 'em park the cars for 3 or 6 races......the money and points will take care of themselves.
Forget the points, money, etc. Just park the cars for 3 or 6 races....the money and points will take care of itself.
anonymous #69, do more than that - park them for more than six races, do not let the sponsors or personnel on the cars be "switched over" to another car (i.e. no Flossie Johnson #97 car), and fine the organization involved 1,000 or more points per car (even those not involved in the cheating) and $1 million-plus per car on top of the multirace suspension.
Make punishment so severe that an organization as big as JGR or Hendrick or Roush sees their entire season destroyed.
A V8 in a Toyota Camry is cheating right there! Also a V8 Impala and a Ford Fusion. If you cant buy it on Monday, you shouldnt be able to race it on Sunday!
N National
A Association of
S Stock
C Car
A Auto
R Racing
STOCK CAR!!!! May REAL RACING Rest In Peace."
"Dumbest post ever. I don't even need to refute your point about using V8's in cars that use 0 stock parts."
No it is not the dumbest post ever! It is the GODS HONEST TRUTH!!!! Bring back stock bodied cars with at LEAST an engine block that you can go to the local dealership to buy!! The way it used to be! You Anonymous have made the dumbest post ever!
Anonymous said...A V8 in a Toyota Camry is cheating right there! Also a V8 Impala and a Ford Fusion. If you cant buy it on Monday, you shouldnt be able to race it on Sunday!
N National
A Association of
S Stock
C Car
A Auto
R Racing
STOCK CAR!!!! May REAL RACING Rest In Peace."
"Dumbest post ever. I don't even need to refute your point about using V8's in cars that use 0 stock parts."
No it is not the dumbest post ever! It is the GODS HONEST TRUTH!!!! Bring back stock bodied cars with at LEAST an engine block that you can go to the local dealership to buy!! The way it used to be! You Anonymous have made the dumbest post ever!
Now you have made the dumbest post ever by agreeing with the second dumbest post that says no one races something with an available V8. I'm sure gm would love to use their aluminum V8 in their stock bodied Impala SS. I guess we will see you at the local Chevy store on Monday.
Cant get a V8 in an Impala. Or a Camry, or a Fusion. Period. My whole point!!!!!!!
anonymous. All the other cars could increase HP if they were allowed. That why the masking of additional HP is cheating. I would love to see them let them do whatever it takes, and the driver with the biggest balls wins, but that is not the case. Everyone must be made to play by the same rules. That has not been the case this year. Toyota has been given more than any other manufacturer this year, so cheating on their part should not be necessary.
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平水相逢|
So much of our beloved sport is centered on love of family
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they tried to mask it. Is that wrong? I don't know.
I agree that cheating should not be acceptable, but it continues to win races; not to just hide from crying owners who can't keep up. Not surprised David you want to hang the Gibbs crew chiefs though.
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My guess is the former and not the latter but either way it was a big mistake to put the magnets there for the dyno test.
For the record I'll predict a 150-200 pts reduction and the "normal" 6 week suspension.
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It's a shame the other teams in the garage that are so quick to jump on the JGR bashing bandwagon wouldn't deal with it the same way given the same situation.
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