Saturday, October 04, 2008

Fans of racing at Talladega? Count me out

TALLADEGA, Ala. - It's not that I don't get why people love to watch races at Talladega Superspeedway.

That's obvious. It's absolutely heart-stopping to watch drivers run at over 190 mph a foot or two from a car in front of them, one on either side of them and another one behind him.

I've never been one who believes that NASCAR fans want to see drivers get hurt. There are fans who don't want to see wrecks, even, and the ones who do consider wrecks a part of the game want to see a driver cheat danger, not fall victim to it.

I have also heard it argued that a race car driver knows the risk he's taking when he straps in, and if you're going to race in the Sprint Cup Series you know that you have to come here twice each year. The way that line of thinking goes, it's part of the bargain.

I suppose you have to concede that point, but still I have to tell you that I am never going to be a big fan of this race track. Not as long as the racing here looks like it does.

It's entirely possible that nobody will be injured in a crash in today's Amp Energy 500. It's even theoretically possible there won't be any wrecks. I've actually seen a caution-free race here, as a matter of fact.

But that doesn't mean my stomach won't be in knots when the green flag flies, and the longer the race goes without a big wreck happening the tighter that knot will be twisted.

It's a fact that no Cup driver has died in a race here since the beginning of the restrictor-plate era. Larry Smith died in a crash here in 1973 and Tiny Lund was killed in 1975.

But even though it has been 33 years since a driver died in a Cup race here, I don't want to wait until after another one is lost in a wreck here to express my concerns about what goes on here.

I hope it never happens again, not here or anywhere else. And if people want to flame me for having concerns the way they will no doubt do in the comments that are on this blog, I can take that, too.

But I am not going to pretend that I don't think racing at Talladega is over the line, that I would much prefer the racing here be less entertaining and more sane.

I am also not going to tell you that if when it's all over and everybody walks out of here unscathed, I won't most likely be shaking my head in wonder at what happens here today.

It's more likely that today's race will have a memorably thrilling finish that people will be talking about for weeks than it is for there to be the kind of problem that I dread so much. I concede that point.

And I deeply hope that's exactly what happens.


Anonymous said...

Well, no comments yet so I'll be the first and personally I agree with you David. I always say a prayer every week for a safe race for the drivers and crews but I say extra when they are racing at 'Dega.

Thanks David.

Deadliest Kvetch said...

Well, I must say that I agree. Restrictor plate racing is plain boring. If I am not wrong, I think most drivers have the pedal to the medal for almost every green flag lap. There is no science to it. Even the drivers will tell you that they don't play much of a role.

I prefer the short tracks, road courses and intermediate courses. Places where driving skill and teamwork win races.

I wish NASCAR would get off their collective asses and fix this problem.


Anonymous said...

There have been horrific crashes at short tracks with no banking and much lower speeds. The fact is that the risk the drivers face - risk of life and limb - exists in every race. You can say there is "more" risk at this track and "less" risk at that track -- but when your life is on the line I think some of it is a distinction without a difference.

These guys are running 400 laps - there is always at least one turn in one lap where they just..barely...make it. And that's at any track.

Some fans hold their breath from the green flag, and watch as it gets worse the longer there is a crash, in EVERY race - not just restrictor plate races.

PS I love the drafting with plate racing. Love it. Aside from the night race at Bristol, this is my favorite race of theyear.

Anonymous said...

PS - I think the fact that Patrick Carpentier and Sam Hornish didn't make the field cuts the chance of a horrific big one by 40%. When was the last time either guy ran 100 laps on ANY track without a spinout?

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah David, I mean last week's race was just a real barn-burner up until the last lap. Come the heck on man. The intermediate tracks have produced some of the worst racing we have seen this year. If it weren't for the short tracks and restrictor plate races, NASCAR would really be in big trouble. I don't care to see anyone get hurt, but I do like seeing a race that really provides tight racing from start to finish.

Anonymous said...

I'm with you David, this really sucks.
It's hard to believe that they make these drivers got through this 4 times a year.
This isn't racing

Anonymous said...

It's a 190 MPH traffic jam. That's not racing in my book.What kind of racing is it where one mistake by a driver can take out 3/4 of the field?

Give me a mile or less any day, and I'd prefer it to 1/2 or 3/4. Now that's racing.

Monkeesfan said...

David, drivers are at greater real risk at Charlotte or Atlanta or Texas than they are at Talladega. That's a fact. We can flame you because you refuse to understand that racing is supposed to be over the line - not jut in the figurative term but also in terms of that stupid yellow line rule the sactioning body implements yet can't justify.

Racing is supposed to be about the field fighting for the win. Racing is about lead changes. It is not and never has been about speed, setups, lifting off the throttle, handling, or any of that crap. Racing is open throttle sidedraft warfare for the win.

stewart - when has a short track ever reached 50 lead changes? Only once - 1991 Southeastern 500 at Bristol - did a short track race even reach 40 lead changes, and it took a one-shot double-file restart procedure to get that - every other time, the short tracks were (and are) uncompetitive.

Talladega, in contrast, has broken 40 lead changes eleven times this ecade and broken 35 lead changes two additional times for good measure.

"What kind of racing is it where one mistake by a driver an take out3/4 of the field?" It's called racing where the entire field is fighting for the win. That manifestly is real racing. Given that a lot of tracks (cough cough, especially Bristol, cough cough) wipe out 20-plus cars almost every race, to attack Talladega is disingenuous a best.

So no, don't give me this mile or less - real racing is 2.5 miles and above.

Todd, the drivers have to actually fight each other for the lead. There is a lot more science to that because it taxes the driver far more than having to get on and off the brakes evry lap; that's not racing, that's just driving. There is nothing competitively interesting about having to lift; real racing ultimately is open throtte. Driving skill is never tested anywhere but in open throttle sidedrafting for the win because that is where the driver has to actually fight for the win.

anonymous #3 nails it about the crashes. For all the whining abot "big one" wrecks, it's always the small ones that injure people.

Gillian Zucker suggested plating Fontana - it'slong past time to do that to all the tracks. Make them all Talladegas. Then the sport will get its fanbase and competitive interest back.

Anonymous said...

Before the day of cookie-cutter cars, I liked to see the Engineering Depts. of the major automakers race each other. GM had the notchback, Ford/Mercury the fastback and Dodge/Plymouth the wing. They all had different aerodynamic profiles and Daytona/Talladega was where the differences were most apparent. Even the engines had different cubic inch sizes. Of course in a 200 MPH draft, it was said someone on a 10 speed bicycle could pass. Yep, Talladega racing really sucks (air).

Anonymous said...

plate racing is a joke. it is just a parade. i mean come on folks. ever wonder why plate tracks are the only ones boris said and others show up for? and then there is mikey. that great talent has ony won three and a half races, all with a plate.

Anonymous said...

Every year, there are some races I look forward to watching, and those that, if I miss, I will just catch the highlights on TV. The ones that are circled on my schedule are Talladega, Daytona, Richmond, Darlington, Dover Bristol and Martinsville. Of course add New Hampshire because its my home track, but thats it. Notice the lack of intermediate tracks? Its not a coincidence...

That being said, its possible for someone to be seriosuly hurt or killed on any track in any race. Bobby Labonte had his bell rung pretty hard at Watkins Glen this year, a 'slower' road course. Michael McDowell walked away from his Texas crash unscathed as well.

I dont watch Talladega hoping for the big one, I watch because Dega and Daytona are usually races that anyone can win, right down to the last lap...

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with David, after going to Talladega for nearly 30 years, I finally stopped a few years ago. This three and four wide, 10 car deep pack racing is just too weird after a while. Sure for a few laps it's exciting, but eventually I feel like I'm watching a go cart race at the beach rather than the best stock car drivers in the world.

Anonymous said...

nh_nascarfan - You are correct. Anyone of the 43 drivers can win a plate race. Which is fine with me as it's nice to see a back-runner get some recognition. However, it does not show that they have driving talent. Dega is a crap shoot. Luck determines the winner not talent.

David - I agree with you on the danger point. If every race was on a 2 1/2 mile track using restricter plates I would not only have an ulcer half way through the season, I would lose interest and stop watching. Variety is the spice of life. I love the Talladega races but 2 a season is enough.

Anonymous said...

If you dont like it then dont watch. David if you dont want to be here then send someone else. Let me ask you this? How many drivers have died at Charlotte(your beloved little track)? How many spectators have died at Charlotte?(see IRL)How many people have died at Loudon? How many at Daytona?

David Poole you simply don't like Talladega...SO STAY AWAY! You never have anything positive to say about the place.Its no secret.

Plate racing is boring? No..Charlotte, Michigan, Kansas,etc are boring. How can 40+ or even 50+lead changes every race be boring? Be bad racing? I thought "racing" was side by side trying to pass the competitor right next to you? Not winning by 3-5 seconds or more.

So dont give me this garbage that Talladega is unsafe or is dangerous. Every race is dangerous. Its the nature of the sport. But don't degrade something year in year out. Instead of trashing the place why don't you do a little investigative reporting and see how much revenue TSS brings in each year. Now thats a story.

TexasRaceLady said...

"But that doesn't mean my stomach won't be in knots when the green flag flies, and the longer the race goes without a big wreck happening the tighter that knot will be twisted."

Same here, David. This will be my "aerobic workout" Sunday. I'll be pacing the floor until the race is over.

Anonymous said...

Somebody play Gloria Gaynor's "I Will Survive" for Mr. Poole, now that they all have. (Denny Hamlin is going to be OK)

Anonymous said...

referencing a couple of posters whose definition of racing is, to paraphrase, "side by side, and the throttle wide open," you can find it any weekend of the season - just over there - NHRA. I'm actually far more interested in a 'package' if you will; a driver who can engage with a variety of terrains, in different cars, blah, blah, blah. And, when it comes to watching risk at a level I find 'uncomfortable,' I have the option of not watching. Mr. Poole, as I understand it, does not. It's his job, doesn't mean he has to like.

Anonymous said...

dp sucks... and so do 1 1/2 mile copy cat tracks. Dega keeps my attention better than Kansas, Chicago, ATL, CLT...

Anonymous said...

monkeesbutt - "David, drivers are at greater real risk at Charlotte or Atlanta or Texas than they are at Talladega. That's a fact."

If it is fact as you claim surely you can provide empirical evidence to prove your point. Correct?

mo9nkessass - "Racing is supposed to be about the field fighting for the win. Racing is about lead changes. It is not and never has been about speed, setups, lifting off the throttle, handling, or any of that crap."

So brainbchild, how do you fight for a win without long hours spent working on "speed, setups, lifting off the throttle, handling," or your so called crap?"

No speed = no win.

no handling = no win.

incorrect set-up = no win.

monkeesbutt - "Talladega, in contrast, has broken 40 lead changes eleven times this ecade and broken 35 lead changes two additional times for good measure."

Lets us say your being disingenuous, rather than a liar:

"The 28 different leaders is a record for the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series, breaking the old mark of 26 previously held by Talladega, that was set in July 1986 and equaled in April 2001. No driver held the lead for more than 20 consecutive laps, and only three drivers managed to hold onto first place for as long as 10 laps."

Unknown said...

Hey marc, MB said "Lead Changes"... not different leaders... that's a different column in the stats books for sure....

Dega & Daytona rule...

as Dale Earnhardt once said when asked to comment about some of the drivers (Dale Jarrett & Rusty Wallace, the 2 biggest whiners ever to put on a helmet) saying the plate sizes should be reduced and plates added at ALL tracks over 1 mile to slow the cars down....
"Those driver need to tie a kerosene soaked rag to both their ankles to keep the ants from crawling up and eating their Candy Asses!!"

and he went out like he lived... wide open as fast as it would go....

wasn't it Harry Truman who said "If you can't stand the heat, you better stay out of the kitchen !!"

I was at the 1st Dega race in 69... the wusses got scared & went home... the men stayed and raced.... those not familiar with the story should look it up... or ask Richard Brickhouse....


Monkeesfan said...

marc - the crashes at Texas etc. have been measured as producing higher Gs than at Talladega, for one. For another the speeds proportionate to the size of those tracks are higher than Talladega - 190 at Texas is much faster proportonate to that size and configuration of track than 190 at Talladega in case you're not able to comprehend.

Second, when setup etc. takes precedence over passing, it isn't racing. Racing is about lead changes, not setup or throttle control - take setup etc. out of the equation so these guys can race.

Third, you obviously cannot read - "Talladega has broken 40 lead changes eleven (now twelve) times this decade and broken 35 lead changes two additional times for good measure." And you come back with a post about number of leaders. Leaders and lead changes are different categories.

Here are the races this decade where Talladega broke 40 lead changes -

OCTOBER 2000 (49 lead changes)
APRIL 2003 (43 lead changes)
SEPTEMBER 2003 (41 lead changes)
APRIL 2004 (53 lead changes)
OCTOBER 2004 (47 lead changes)
OCTOBER 2005 (50 lead changes)
MAY 2006 (56 lead changes)
OCTOBER 2006 (63 lead changes)
APRIL 2007 (42 lead changes)
OCTOBER 2007 (42 lead changs)
APRIL 2008 (52 lead changes)
OCTOBER 2008 (64 lead changes)

That is fact, not your specialty, disingenuity.

jamie, a parade is something without passing - Talladega has the highest incidence of passing in the sport.

anonymous #9 - why are engineering departments supposed to be more important than drafting? Talladega is infinately better when its about lead changes instead of engineering departments because lead changes matter more competitively than engineering.

Monkeesfan said...

David, kudos for noting Ramsey Poston's "anything goes" comment on Regan Smith getting jobbed over that apron pass. Jim Hunter is nothing but a tool.

Anonymous said...

monkeesass "marc - the crashes at Texas etc. have been measured as producing higher Gs than at Talladega, for one. For another the speeds proportionate to the size of those tracks are higher than Talladega - 190 at Texas is much faster proportonate to that size and configuration of track than 190 at Talladega in case you're not able to comprehend."

Based on what you claim more deaths should have happened at Texas and other similar tracks. Right?

Well let us just see during what is called the "modern era:"

Ricky Knotts, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 14, 1980
Terry Schoonover, race, Atlanta, Nov. 11, 1985
Rick Baldwin, qualifying (died in 1997), Michigan, June 16, 1986
Bruce Jacobi, qualifying (died 4 years after crash), Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 4, 1987
Grant Adcox, race, Atlanta, Nov. 19, 1989
J.D. McDuffie, race, Watkins Glen, N.Y., Aug. 11, 1991
Clifford Allison, BGN practice, Brooklyn, Mich., Aug. 13, 1992
Neil Bonnett, practice, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 11, 1994
Rodney Orr, qualifying, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 14, 1994
John Nemechek, truck race injuries, Homestead, Fla., March 21, 1997
Adam Petty, BGN practice, Loudon, N.H., May 12, 2000
Kenny Irwin, practice, Loudon, N.H., July 7, 2000
Tony Roper, truck race, Fort Worth, Texas, Oct. 14, 2000
Dale Earnhardt, Daytona 500, Daytona Beach, Fla., Feb. 18, 2001

For those not counting that's five at Daytona, more than any other track.

I read just fine, leaders is the stat that matters, lead changes skews it into total non-relevance.

A lead change that isn't reflected in it being counted by crossing the stripe is pure unadulterated horseshit.

monkeesass - "David, kudos for noting Ramsey Poston's "anything goes" comment on Regan Smith getting jobbed over that apron pass. Jim Hunter is nothing but a tool."

Then you must have "kudos" for Jim Hunter who made plain what has been told to the drivers.

""You cannot improve your position anytime you go below the yellow line," Hunter said. "In our judgment, he (Regan Smith) improved his position and the penalty for that is a pass-through, so he was moved back to the tail end of the longest line or 18th position.

"At the drivers' meeting we clearly state that you cannot improve your position by going below the yellow line. We do not feel he was forced below the yellow line. Anytime you get into a situation like this, there are going to be two different opinions.

"We respect Regan's view, but we made the call, we think it's the right call and the finish is final."

What will you argue now, that NASCAR has been inconsistent? So... we know that, but in this case they got it correct.

Unknown said...

A lead change that isn't reflected in it being counted by crossing the stripe is pure unadulterated horseshit.

the lead changes are only counted and put in the record books if they are recorded at the S/F line ... if EVERY lead change at Dega were logged, they would be well into the hundreds....


Anonymous said...

Very important for all to note, that the business of Nascar trumps everything. In this instince, we are at a profile track, a driver in the Chase who has not won in a long time, 2 high profile sponsors, one of which (Subway), which Nascar would like to see expand their involvement. The race coverage had gone over it`s alloted time window, so now you have people looking to tune into the news, suddenly watching a stock car race at suppertime on a Sunday afternoon. This was the "perfect storm". A "judgement call" so to speak sneaks in to determine the end of this race. This was a no brainer for Nascar. Make a discision that will benefit all the above conditions, lobby the media outlets for the next few days to justify, and everything will be fine next week. The cars you see going around every Sunday is secondary, to the big picture, which is to sell product & sell exposure. That is the price to pay for corporate involvement, and to grow the monetary value of the sport. Capitalism... I urge all to enjoy the spectacle of cars going around in circles at 2000mph, but just remember that this is a business 7 days a week. If you can adjust your thinking to this mentality, you won`t ever be hurt by a Nascar decision. Thanks for reading.

Anonymous said...

What's not to love about Talladega? There were 64 lead changes between 28 drivers. It would take at least 10 races at Bristol for 64 lead changes.

Anonymous said...

When they repaved the track, they should have taken some of the banking out which may have removed the need for the restrictor plates and at the very least meant that the drivers might have to lift occasionally.

Monkeesfan said...

marc, they've been lucky there haven't been more deaths at those other tracks. Your list goes back to well before the restrictor plate era, when the speeds were hitting beyond what Daytona could handle.

marc, Hunter was caught in a contradiction by Poole. They did not get it correct here and can never get it correct until they drop these rules about areas they have no business policing to begin with. Hunter only proved himself to be a tool as you prove yourself to be an ignoramus every time.

And marc, lead changes reflects the race's competitiveness. No, you don't read just fine, you read like a stupid punk. culo nails you on that.

Here's the bottom line, marc - 64 lead changes among 28 drivers is more important to racing than anything else. That is what real racing is. Learn to love it, marc.

culo, Dale Earnhardt's comment was self-deceiving stupidity on his part and by such had zero credibility. I'm familiar with the Richard Brickhouse story - it should be noted that after that 1969 race, ISC repaved the turns at Talladega, which is what the other drivers had wanted.

anonymous #27, lifting is never racing. People have long wanted some other tracks to increase their banking - make them restrictor plate tracks like Talladega and the sport will get its competitive depth (and audience) back.

Anonymous said...

hey mr poole. just trying to understand what it is about 'dega that you dislike so intently. your writing makes it sound as if the very real threat of a driver suffering a severe accident or dying is what turns you away from this track. i respectfully suggest that every track carries that risk.
is it because of the random nature of events at 'dega, what espn loves extolling as "the big one"? i might agree with that as i seem to prefer to watch the levels of racing that actually involve much more talent than luck. 'dega seems to have that somewhat -- but not entirely -- backwards.

talladega is a wild card, pure and simple. it's the "perfect storm" of racing conditions and the new car has just intensified the situation. NO fan wants to see ANY driver wreck and anyone who says that it's why people watch nascar is downright ignorant, both of our sport and our fans. but wrecks happen and they happen at every track and speed makes wrecks worse (although lower speeds can also produce horrifying effects.) so, what 'dega gives us high speed, a wide track, a great track surface and a reputation.

for myself? when i hear a driver say (as was said on the radio after the last big wreck yesterday) "i've used up all my good luck today. i'm not gonna push it . . .", i have to wonder if the problem is the speed or the inexperience of some of the drivers in actually racing at 'dega. if one of our champions can actually get so nervous about the poor driving by other guys on the track with him to the point that he doesn't even want to push it to race for the win, there's something very wrong. the masters at drafting manage to get around that place ok -- until someone who had decided to "hang back" all race decides it's time to join the big guys up front, someone who doesn't understand how -- or when! -- to draft.

problem with 'dega isn't 'dega -- or daytona. it's the drivers (NOT racers) who don't know how to handle those tracks and don't respect those who do. it's been like that thru all of its history: only difference now is increased visibility and attention.

Anonymous said...

Aw crap, Dave. You had to go and do it didn't you? You have made me agree with Monkeeman...Dang. Gotta go wash off---

Monkeesfan said...

red, that's one the best epistiles about Talladega I've ever read. You nail it.

Unknown said...

i just have one question.
what do we do to 'make the racing sane' at talladega?
not a slap or being smart, i agree about restrictor plate racing but how do we fix it at places like Talladega and Daytona???

Monkeesfan said...

lee, no need to apologize for your question.

The issue with the whole discussion is - why is there need to "fix" anything about Daytona and Talladega? For all the talk about "the big one," how is wiping out 20 cars in a race at Bristol (a common occurance) really different from a "big one" crash? 20 wrecked cars is the same whether they're wrecked all at once or in ten seperate crashes. As for risk to driver safety, the fact remains that driver deaths and serious injuries over the last dozen years and longer have not happeed in "big one" melees - they have happened in single or two-car crashes.

As for the racing, I'm still dumbstruck by people who argue that it isn't "real." Talladega has broken 40 official lead changes now twelve times this decade - why is that not "real?" Why would it not be "real" if Fontana, Atlanta, Texas, Charlotte, Pocono, Michigan, Chicago, Kansas, Kentucky, etc. could race as Talladega does? As it is, Chicago and Texas in their IRL races both saw terrific sidedraft racing for the win - Talladega-style racing for Indycars.

The blunt reality is there is nothing to fix at the plate tracks - the fixing needed is everywhere else to make the racng everywhere else as competitive as Daytona and Talladega. I've long heard and read comments about banking up some tracks - well, if there is real need for such, then do what Gillian Zucker recommended to her track (California Speedway) - make plate tracks out of them.

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