Wednesday, March 05, 2008

Rulings raise new questions about commission's role

So much for the National Stock Car Commission being a NASCAR rubber stamp. After what's happened this week, capped by Wednesday's impossible-to-decipher ruling on the Robby Gordon case, it seems more like the commission has become a runaway court.

The appeals panel's job is to decide whether NASCAR has fairly applied its rules in cases where teams or drivers have run afoul of those laws. Its job is not to rewrite the rulebook or invent its own methods for handing out penalties that are not provided for in those rules.

Yet twice earlier this week, in cases involving Nationwide Series teams, the commission shifted responsibilities for fines from a team's crew chief to the team's owner. That might not be a big deal, since in many cases the team owner pays the fines anyway. But the rulebook specifically says the crew chief is the responsible party. So the commission is simply making that process up out of thin air.

On top of that, the commission threw out one penalty and reduced a couple of others for loose lids on oil tank reservoirs in Nationwide cars. Apparently, teams started arguing about what the rule that said those lids have to be "securely fastened" actually means.

So when it came time to penalize Carl Edwards's team for its loose oil tank containter lid from Sunday's race in Las Vegas, NASCAR didn't even cite the rule about the loose oil reservoir lid. Instead, in the Edwards penalty it cited another rule that prohibits anything unapproved that allows air to pass from outside the car to the inside or vice versa.

That's what this whole thing is about. If you leave that lid loose you're basically providing a chimney for air to flow up from under the car into the cockpit. That basicially sucks the car down on the track, creating downforce that teams desperately want and need with this new race car now being used.

Roush Fenway Racing says a bolt holding the lid down vibrated to the point it failed. People who're in a position to know tell me that cover is supposed to have four bolts holding it down, and if they all shook loose the mirrors and steering wheel would shake loose, too. But what do I know?

After all, the whole "It's not my fault!" defense seemed to work OK for Gordon, who got back his 100 driver and owner points and had crew chief Frank Kerr's suspension eliminated by the suddenly rogue commission.

Gordon is going to spin that as vindication. But let's be clear about this. The part on the car was unapproved and the commission ruled that Gordon was still responsible for it being on the car. It also increased his team's fine to $150,000 - the largest ever levied in NASCAR. So Gordon was not cleared of the violation.

Instead, the commission seems suddenly to be in the business of substituting its judgment for the rulebook's. Since the points deductions really might be tougher on Gordon's team than it might be on one of Jack Roush's or Rick Hendrick's teams, the commission gave back the points and increased the fine, apparently figuring that Dodge, which screwed up by giving Gordon the wrong part, would pay it anyway.

That probably will help Gordon's team. The point, though, is that the commission has no business thinking about that.

The commission is not empaneled to keep a team in business or run it off. The commission's job is to decide if proper procedures were applied in assessing and penalizing violations.

In the eyes of the commission all drivers and all team owners should be the same, no matter who they are or how much money they have.

52 comments:

David said...

Nascar has forever been about the grey area and you just don't like that or Robby Gordon. Thanks to the commision a clerical error has not shutdown a race team. That is what was laid down by the Commission. Why has Carl Edwards fenders that where legal but not allowed not mentioned anywhere other than on Mike Mulherns column not brought up ever?? The garage was policing itself thats right.. Just don't bring those fenders back Mr. Roush they fit the templates but aren't what we like...

Kurt2 said...

I should have guessed that would be your take on RGm with the reversal..

It is IN FACT the Boards job to RULE with the facts presented. Which they did. They are the arbitrator in NASCAR. NOT NASCAR.

So the Rule Book is present and accounted for but it is A MATTER OF INTERPETATION as the everchanging Rule Book is.

RGM presente the case and won..

I do agree with you somewhat David, they were between a rock and a hard place with this one..

The 99 was a given and seen all thru the garage. but NASCAR will not in fact take a win from any team.

Why? Well whose going to call the sponsor and tell them that ? Not Mike or Brian..

Anonymous said...

Good for the commission. Robbie was getting screwed by a STUPID policy.

NASCAR's inpsection/penalty rules are STUPID. Penalizing teams/drivers/owners for pre-race inspection failures is STUPID, considering the car hasn't even sniffed the track.

However, NASCAR should bury the team/owner/driver that gets caught cheating on the track during competition.

If a team fails prerace inspection, tell them simply to go back to the hauler and fix the problems. They get one chance to make it right after failing the initial inspection. (nobody gets a second chance until everybody's gotten their first chance)

If they fail after their 2nd and last chance, then sayanora for the weekend. That's the driver, team car, and sponsor. Everybody goes home. That is the punishment. No fines. No point deductions.

And to encourage teams to get it right the first time, award the teams/drivers 5-10 bonus points for getting through inspection the 1st go round.

Now, when a team cheats in competition, (like the 99 just got caught doing), then get no points, no money, no nothing for that event, AND, they (team car, driver, and sponsor) all get to sit at home the next race. If the team gets caught cheating at the last event of the season, then they sit out Speedweeks/Daytona 500.

That is in effect 2 races worth of points. They also forfeit all driver/team owner bonus points earned to that point in the season. All bonus points.

That's a big penalty, and not letting the sponsors put their colors on somebody elses ride, will certainly force changes.

Anonymous said...

so you don't like robby and hope he goes away.

we don't want any single car teams mucking up the landscape now, do we.

David said...

One more thing and I do kinda have an axe to grind. You keep mentioning about this rule book. You talk about it on Sirius and everyone has one to look at on radio and TV. But the fans don't but then to you David the fans are a big pain.. Why can't the fans have a rule book so maybe they could understand this stuff better... I know we aren't as smart as everyone that cover NASCAR on Radio and TV..

Anonymous said...

the cover was MISSING.

it didn't just kinda come a little loose.

try telling the truth.

the 10 points went away, how about giving them to Jr.

since edwards cheated to win, give the win to the real winner.

Kurt2 said...

David you said:

" Why can't the fans have a rule book so maybe they could understand this stuff better... I know we aren't as smart as everyone that cover NASCAR on Radio and TV.."

You are dead on. When we get THE BOOK, we must account for it. You will never see it out for sale or given out period..

You note most rule infractions fall under the same Rule #?

NASCAR proclaims it polices itself...Not..

To ANON.. you can see Mr Poole is not a Robby fan, nor non biased, he would rather write about crushed ice than state a good word for Robby..

David P , why dont you explain your distaste for RG for the Blog to read? Hell those in here know, make it known in Public.. or can you??????

Ryan Gray said...

Ok, we get it Poole, you don't like Robby Gordon. Now, go do something productive with your life, like lose some weight.

Graceann said...

No disrespect meant Mr. Poole, but being a reporter, journalist, you should remember reading the statement from Dodge Motorsports stating very clearly that they were in fact responsible for the wrong the nose being given to Robby Gordon. The part numbers for both noses are the same and listed in NASCAR's book as approved parts. The only difference is the decals, no advantage whatsoever. So when Robby says he was innocent, he was innocent. NASCAR finally got something right. While your at it Mr.Poole maybe you can find out why there is no crushed ice at the races.

Anonymous said...

From David Poole:
Guys, let me try to answer some of you.
1. David -- I don't know anything about fenders on the 99 car. I am not responsible for what Mulhern writes. Ask him. And just don't complain the next time Hendrick or Roush claims "clerical error" on a violation.

2. Kurt2 -- The commission's ruling on FACT is that a violation occurred. Hence, the largest fine in NASCAR history. RGM did not "win" the appeal. There was a violation and that was upheld. The commission, however, substituted its policy of raising the fine and reducing points for what NASCAR has done recently by making points penalties the emphasis. This is a new direction for the commission and I think it's the wrong one for the sport.

4. Anonymous -- Don't tell me that I hate single-car teams. I miss people like Larry Hedrick and Travis Carter and Larry McClure. I don't want to miss the Wood Brothers and it would hurt NASCAR if Robby Gordon left.

5. David -- you can get a rulebook. Join NASCAR.

7. Kurt2 -- You assume I don't like Robby because I think he's wrong in this case. That's your mistake. I can't explain your mistake for you.

8. Ryan -- I can always lose weight. Sadly, you're as smart now as you will ever be.

Anonymous said...

9. GraceAnn -- No ma'am. You are wrong. The part numbers are NOT the same. They just aren't. And the part that was on Robby's car at Daytona is not listed as an approved part in the rule book. It's just not. No matter how many times Robby says it, or how many times Mike Joy says it. That's not the truth. The commission said today that Robby Gordon Motorsports did not argue that the part that was on the car was an approved part. It simply was not. That's why he got fined 150 percent what anybody else has ever been fined before.

Anonymous said...

You might want to check this out Mr. Poole. http://api.ning.com/files/gnFAPHOrCTJS4thA-ybGinDijG5mSf6ltXRvcCa522I_/nascarrulebook1.jpg?width=500

Redvette said...

Poole, stop being pompous. The commission is Nascar. Like we're fooled. Every penalty is NOT the same and does not deserve the same punishment. They actually used common sense and voted that way for RG because they wanted to toss the fans a cookie and they knew it was right. Zero tolerance does not have to mean rubber stamp penalties. NASCAR saved face by raising the fine. Pre-race violations should get sent back to the garage. Only race and post race violations should involve points.

Anonymous said...

Wow! It sure looks like Anonymous has a copy of the NASCAR Bible. And those two part numbers certainly are identical. RG seems happy with the decision, but I don't feel the increase in the fine was justified. As I said in another blog, post race inspection violations (issues?) should be dealt with more severely that pre-race inspection violations, because the car did in fact run the race with parts, or modifications, in violation to the rules. Teams failing pre-race inspection should be penalized, but not as severely, because they did not compete with a car that violated the rules. RG may not back down from anybody, but he's also man enough to take his lumps when he's wrong, without being a crybaby. In this instance, I believe Robby was 100% innocent.

Anonymous said...

So, NASCAR gives reporters copies of their rule book to verify part numbers! Who knew!

Richard in N.C. said...

Anything mentioned in Mulhern's commentaries should be critically evaluated in light of his continued bias and anti-NASCAR vendetta.

BruSimm said...

Yea, Robby's fine went up, but he's back in the game with his points and I think the ruling was fine. They recognized it was a very unique circumstance and that the final determination of parts used is the teams.

Was it really a decal difference only? It would have looked poorly for NASCAR to attack a team for having the wrong decals.

Guys, I'm no one's fan, but Poole sees a rule book and he's as stern about rules needing enforcement more than anyone else I know. That's all this is.

The wacky thing is that the charger is still running the avenger nose while that new nose that Robby got busted for is the charger nose.

So here's a humorous interlude: If someone were to sneak around the garage and swap headlight decals, how much trouble would everyone get into??

MArc said...

"So when it came time to penalize Carl Edwards's team for its loose oil tank containter lid from Sunday's race in Las Vegas, NASCAR didn't even cite the rule about the loose oil reservoir lid."

That statement is flat out incorrect. It's been reported and images said to exist the tank lid was in fact missing during Carl's post race Backflip.

Several quotes attributed to NASCAR officials have also stated the cover was MIA, not loose.

Graceanne - you continue to mis-state the facts with regards to the RGM nose piece.

Dodge Motorsports at no time had anything to do with the production of or shipment of that part:

"The part in question was built by the company Five Star, which produces the nose and other parts for all manufacturers. The nose then was shipped to EPP, which sent it out to Robby Gordon Motorsports."

You and anyone else is entitled to their opinion, but not entitled to their own facts.

Anonymous said...

David, I believe you when you say you miss the days of single-car teams. But the reality in today’s NASCAR is that if a reporter were to piss off a Jack Roush or a Rick Hendrick sufficiently, their job could be made extremely difficult. The same can’t really be said with regard to Robby Gordon, and whether you’re conscious of it or not, I think sometimes this reality is reflected in your writing.

Graceann said...

Marc: I did not say Dodge made the parts, I say they said they took responiblity for Robby receiving the wrong nose, Here is my proof:(Gordon said the distribution warehouse shipped him an updated Charger nose after being told by a Dodge representative that the part had been approved.In a statement from Dodge, Kipp Owen, director of Dodge Motorsports Engineering, said "a series of human errors led to an unapproved Dodge Charger nose being given to RGM from the Dodge/Evernham Performance Parts warehouse. While the nose meets the template, it has not yet been approved by NASCAR. The prototype parts were in the warehouse and share the same base part number as the approved Dodge Avenger nose.Gordon said Dodge had taken responsibility for the mistake, and that Chrysler CEO and Chairman Bob Nardelli had lobbied NASCAR President Mike Helton for leniency, as had Gordon.) So yes Marc, you are correct, but Dodge did take blame as well.

Anonymous said...

I've been saying all along that Nascar should have invoked the Except In Rare Instances clause in the rulebook and forgiven Robby part of the penalty.

There has to be a penalty for accidental violations because otherwise you open the door to teams doing things "accidentally on purpose". But since the trail was so well documented in Robby's case, forgiving the points penalty while retaining the fine is justice done.

I thought I read shortly after the problem was discovered that either Dodge or the supplier was going to pay the fine, but I haven't seen anything further about that. Morally they ought to -- which would then put the penalty on those who were ultimately responsible for the violation.

Ed said...

Poole, sometimes you absolutely amaze me. You and several others of your kind have been running around talking about how "NASCAR got it right this time" re Gordon's punishment (pre-appeal penalty). What a crock of Big Bull. They didn't get it right at all. It shows how Mickey Mouse this sport's officiating has become. How could penalizing a team for an 'unapproved part' that looked acted and IS the same part as the "approved" part just not yet logged on paper as approved and did not and does not provide ANY competitive advantage whatsoever and not even used in the race itself constitute getting it right? It defies all common sense applied to any business or even personal life. I would ass-u-me that the whole point of NASCAR being tough on teams, especially on the COT, is to make a point that ALTERING this car out of bounds for a competitive advantage and to avoid a "competitive arms race" that the Twisted Sister had become. How did this penalty add to that? So in the first place the whole affair is stupid.

Now I must admit that the Commission's ruling is certainly out of character but not wrong. It's odd the fine was increased and I don't see the logic in that at all. But that doesn't mean an odd ruling that stretches logic is wrong. The Commission did its best to right a foolish ruling in the first place. So any ruling from them at the get go would be suspect to a degree because to rule to uphold NASCAR wold have been the 2nd biggest mistake made in that case. The issue should have never risen to that point in the first place. Logic should have prevailed in the NASCAR truck long before.

Another item of your is troublesome. How touching is your article "Cost isn't a valid excuse when walls still need work" at Las Vegas. Your words just smack of pandering. Let me ask you, how long has this issue been around? I remember that calls for a better system have been around for at least 10 years, maybe a lot longer. This thing (to retrofit the walls or not) has always been about money, about CapEx. And it has been around a long long time. What is at least part of the travesty is that more writers and reporters haven't gotten off their extra large butt and out of the media center and called NASCAR ISC and SMI to task long before now. Maybe they cannot do ALL the walls and every race track, but the place where they had the problem at Las Vegas would be evident to the blind. How convenient it is now for you to write about it. Why don't you write about serious issues BEFORE they become chic? Too busy politickin for NMPA? Hey, you aren't the only one falling down on the yob. No one else seemed to get the deal, even Bruton Smit et al, who I respect as a good businessman. But as I said at the top of this rant, just because I don't like what you said when you said it on this soft wall issue, doen't mean you are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Poole you as usual got the ruling wrong. Robby was vindicated from a stupid rule. How inflexible!!! Gas on Robby!!!

Anonymous said...

Why wasn't Edwards dollar fine the same as Gordons ? If NASCAR is increasing the fines for cheating then why not for Edwards ?

Anonymous said...

The reponse by NASCAR to cheating has always been a mystery to most fans . Can someone name any sport where a competitor caught cheating is still allowed to keep the win and the trophy ? What exactly would a driver or team have to do to have the win taken away ? And how could you explain the rational for this to a " casual fan " .

klb102 said...

I wanna know why a team can appeal a penalty to retain their crew chief till the appeal, but they point get to keep their points? Had that been the case.....Robby would have been able to attend the media day for the top 12 at California.

Lynn said...

Maybe the off season wasn't long enough for Mr Poole to recharge his batteries. Use to be I could write him and get a reasonable or at least respectful answer, However i recently sent an e-mail to him questioning the retroactive sponsorships and the fact that calling people like King Richard a 7 time SPRINT CUP champion really bugged us fan. He jumped all over me and told me he was tired of hearing it. If you are gonna be in the people business, maybe you ought to have some people skills.

Lynn said...

And by the way, I noticed that Dave Rodman wrote an entire article on the fact that eliminating the previous sponsors such as Busch, Winston, Nextel, was a diservice to the history of the sport.

Anonymous said...

David, I expect fans to be biased, & I guess they have a right to be. After all, we're the ones paying for this gigantic money machine, called NA$CAR.
I do expect the writers who feed off the sport to be even handed. In this area you sir, are a miserable failure!!

dawg

Anonymous said...

Mr. Poole..just wondering..if you think the commission was unjust and over the line in reversing PART of Gordon's penalties..what do you think they are there for? If I am understanding what you have written they are only there as "figureheads"..and not to go over the facts as presented and make what they feel is a just call. This week was quite unusual as they reversed the Wallace penalties and now part of Gordon's. BUT..I am sure they are alittle more in the know of the rules and situations then you are...and with the way NA$CAR is with their rulings..up and down...it seems to me the commission is as close to being correct in reversing the penalties as NA$CAR was in actually granting the penalties to begin with....Hey..who's to say...it depends on who is NA$CAR is wearing their glasses as to how they rule on an infraction on a given day...At least the commission has had a few days and more facts to go on....and maybe all of them are wearing their glasses on the day of the hearings!!!

TOYPHD said...

I have a question that I did not see addressed in the thousands of commentaries on the Robby Gordon violation.

Robby Gordon said the only difference between the two front ends is the new one has different decal indentations thus there was no aerodynamic advantage. If that is the case, then when they tried to apply the old decal stickers to the new indentations, shouldn't that have made it obvious that something was wrong?

Further. No one in the media is really interested in settling the discussion factually. If they were, then one of the verbose panel of pundits during the 12 hours of prerace coverage would have shown the two front ends side by side to prove to fans whether this was an honest mistake or intentional.

But hey, this is NACSAR, why let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Lynn said...

Toy, Jeff Hammond did a sement showing the two nose caps in question. The indentation had no impact on how the decal fit. I can understand how you missed it, with all the other useless info and dribble they have during the prerace show

Insider said...

http://api.ning.com/files/gnFAPHOrCTJS4thA-ybGinDijG5mSf6ltXRvcCa522I_/nascarrulebook1.jpg?width=500
Interesting

nh_nascarfan said...

So now here is the problem... Pandora’s Box has now been opened.

(1) Whenever NASCAR issues a penalty, fans are up in arms about it stating NASCAR is inconsistent. For the first time, they have tried to be consistent and they have been chastised. NASCAR stated clearly that ANY changing of the body of the COT (not a Nationwide or a Truck - yet) will result in the same penalty. That’s now no longer true, because one need only claim 'clerical error' to cover their tracks, one might even be able to get a bunch of people to back up said clerical error and even create evidence to back their story up, such as packing slips, memos, etc. Policing the sport has now become much harder.

(2)Intent doesn’t matter, if you look at every penalty in the history of the sport NOBODY intended to do it, ever! Now, everyone took sympathy with 'poor old Robbie Gordon' because 'NASCAR doesn’t like him' and it was an 'honest' mistake. Just like the 48, 24, and 8 teams last year (the 24 & 48 thought the modifications were within the rules and the 8 also 'accidentally' put on the wrong part). Of course, now intent does indeed matter, as proven by the commissions rulings as well as NASCARS own ruling with the Carl Edwards pit road incident Sunday (so much for consistency).

Let’s be clear about one thing though... NASCAR is just as much to blame by their long history of arbitrary discipline; sadly any attempt to correct the problems of the past by finally becoming consistent has been blown out of the water by the commission.
Remember how angry you are about the RG case the next time you feel that they are being inconsistent in handing out a penalty.

Also, can everyone please knock off the attacks on David Poole? I know he doesn’t need me to defend him, however it seems to me that every time he writes something that some people disagree with, they jump all over him for his weight, being a NASCAR apologist, etc. You people need to get a life, just as people slam myself and Marc for 'not allowing people to have an opinion (not true, of course), you slam us personally as well as David for writing something you disagree with.

Just because you agree with NASCAR doesn’t mean you hate Robbie Gordon. It just means that you are concerned with the levels of consistency when t comes to discipline and penalties in NASCAR, which is one of the biggest gripes on this blog – be it Robbie or anyone else.

Food for thought that nobody has yet to answer to – if the exact same thing happened to the 24 or 48, how many of you would change your tune? I have asked now 4 times in this and a previous thread, and nobody has answered. Perhaps the silence is my answer…

Diane said...

nh_nascarfan,

Sorry to disappoint you. I admit I very much dislike HMS. But if they were penalized for the same thing Robby was, I would still think it was unfair and I would say so.

I also don't like it when people bring David's appearance into the conversation. It's fine to disagree with what he says. But we shouldn't get personal.

Graceann said...

Has the 24, 48 or any other team been given the wrong unapproved part that is listed in the book with the same part number by the warehouse and had both the sponsor and the manufacturer step up in support of the team? With the manufacturer admitting error on their part for this getting through to the team? I think what you have presented with these teams was created within the team circle, what happened with Robby's team was a wider spread of errors. There is a difference.

MArc said...

Anon - "Can someone name any sport where a competitor caught cheating is still allowed to keep the win and the trophy ?"

If I had made that statement I'd Id myself as "anon" also.

1. Any and all NY Yankee wins and or championship were relief pitchter Steve Howe competed in. Hown failed 6-8 drug rests yet his recod and the Yankees still stands.

2. Last I heard Mark McQuires 70 homeruns is still the record to beat.

3. Barry "Overstuffed" Bonds now holds the career HR record.

Need more "anon," there are dozens of them.

One other thing, do you actually think before you write?

Anonymous said...

To all the yahoos who say, "it isn't cheating unless it's used on the track," so if NASCAR didnt catch his bad front nose before he got in the race (which is what inspection is for), then they should have waited to punish him after he used it in the race (because clearly it was illegal). Please tell me the difference.

Paul B said...

Marc,

I believe you missed the point of the question that Anon had asked.

These drug examples you use are flawed. As much as we all believe that McGwire and Bonds are dirty, there is no proof that either used.

And you're talking about things found long after any championships were awarded.

But Edwards post-race inspection found the issue immediately and if the win was to be taken away it could have been easily done.

I hope no one's naive enough to think that professional sports are cheating-free. But regardless, why should it be ignored if it's found?

How about not being so quick to dismiss someone else's opinion, anon or not?

Monkeesfan said...

Sounds like Roush found a new way to cheat via ground effects.

Anonymous said...

Ryan Gray - Do something productive for the entire human race and cease or stop reproducing.


Ed - David is right on with Robbie...Robbie admits the part was unapproved, competitive advantage has nothing to do with it.

David is one of the few that covers the beat that doesn't bow down to NASCAR...he uses stuff called, um, FACTS...and his BRAIN.







Rob

Richard in N.C. said...

DAVID- Not sure where else to post this. I really did enjoy your "Cost isn't a valid excuse" piece on THATSRACIN. A well thought out, well written, spot-on article. Thank you.

MArc said...

monkeesfan - "Sounds like Roush found a new way to cheat via ground effects."

sounds more like five NNS teams found out first.

MArc said...

paul b - "I believe you missed the point of the question that Anon had asked.

These drug examples you use are flawed. As much as we all believe that McGwire and Bonds are dirty, there is no proof that either used.

And you're talking about things found long after any championships were awarded."


I didn't miss a damn thing.

You claim the Steve Howe case is "flawed." How so, the man was suspended seven times for drug use. There is no doubt he pitched at times while under the influence and the reason he was suspended for life. (later rescinded by the nuts in charge)

In Bonds case the proof is contained in the Grand Jury testimony. And everyone and his step-brother knew a good portion of both leagues players were juicing up, they just sat in their collective asses and did nothing.

Can you definitively say Pete Rose didn't manipulate any games he managed while betting on the same games?

And yes I will quickly dismiss any and all factless and misguided notes posted.

Richard in N.C. said...

Thank goodness grand jury testimony isn't proof yet - otherwise the Duke lacrosse players would not be free.

Anonymous said...

Marc, There are some pics on infield parking. You might want to look if you haven't already seen them. Those are the onlyonesI have found so far.

Kurt2 said...

Monkeefan

You must have hit your head or smoke cracked... David is the one who is NON biased to NASCAR? BS>

I sit in here today in the damn raina nd read the thing you spewed.. To Laugh, so thank you..


Poole is so far up NASCAR period it is pathetic.. Too damn funny..thanks for this laugh when I have to sit in the rain, and BS here..

You are a trip..

Paul B said...

I didn't miss a damn thing.

You claim the Steve Howe case is "flawed." How so, the man was suspended seven times for drug use. There is no doubt he pitched at times while under the influence and the reason he was suspended for life. (later rescinded by the nuts in charge)

In Bonds case the proof is contained in the Grand Jury testimony. And everyone and his step-brother knew a good portion of both leagues players were juicing up, they just sat in their collective asses and did nothing.

Can you definitively say Pete Rose didn't manipulate any games he managed while betting on the same games?

Tell you what, you lay out the proof of what games Rose threw and we'll counter.

We all BELIEVE Bonds juiced, but it's not proven. It's just Grand Jury testimony. That's not enough, sorry.

Steve Howe was a bit middle reliever. I would consider his contribution fairly meaningless. But perhaps that's your best point.

But how about not being dismissive to anyone who disagrees with you?

Monkeesfan said...

Uh, Kurt, where did I mention David Poole in my post here? All I said was that it sounds like Roush found a new way to cheat via ground effects.

nh_nascarfan said...

Diane...

I'm glad you feel that way, sadly though there are plenty of those out there that are willing to look the other way when it comes to RG, but if it were JG or JJ, they would be calling for a lifetime ban...

By the way, RG was not vindicated. It was still the wrong, unapproved part; RG admitted it and the commission admitted it. All they did was change the penalty in such a way that RG would not lose his points or crew chief, they also levied the BIGGEST FINE IN NASCAR HISTORY. He was found guilty folks, regardless of the cause.

The problem is, with all the smoke and mirrors, the most important point has gone ignored - he presented an illegal car at inspection. Period. NASCAR rules have been very clear that the crew chief is responsible to present a legal car, and that wasn’t the case. They penalize crew chiefs that present illegal cars, and that is what they did. Further, it was a COT violation, and they gave the standard penalty.

Be happy for RG if you want, but the damage that has been done to the sport because of this precedent is greater than anything else that could have possibly happened.

nh_nascarfan said...

For thoes of you who havent had the chance to read Dave Moodys blog on Robbie Gordon...

http://www.sirius-speedway.com/

"I have no doubt that Robby Gordon Motorsports did not intentionally mount an unapproved nose on their car at Daytona. An honest mistake by Dodge –sending the offending part instead of the appropriate, NASCAR-approved nose – was compounded by team members who installed it without noticing the difference. It could happen to anyone, especially someone in a rush to complete a full-bore manufacturer swap in just four days.

Like they adage says, haste makes waste.

No matter what, though, Gordon’s Jim Beam Dodge was not correct when presented for pre-qualifying inspection at Daytona. And someone has to be held accountable for that fact.

NASCAR handled the situation exactly has they have in the past, docking Gordon’s team 100 driver and owner points, and suspending crewchief Frank Kerr for six races. They declined to consider intent -- just as they have in every other case of this type over the last two years – displaying the kind of consistency fans say they want from their sanctioning body.

Gordon also did all the right things, pleading his case with a perfect mix of apology and indignance. Dodge Motorsports took full blame for the screw-up, tossing around “mea culpas” like rose petals at a high-society wedding. Sponsor Jim Beam mounted an effective public relations campaign on Gordon’s behalf, allowing him to arrive at yesterday’s hearing with armloads of petitions from NASCAR fans pleading for leniency. In the end, the National Stock Car Racing Commission sided with Gordon, eliminating the driver and owner points penalties, and reinstating crewchief Kerr.

The commission may have done the right thing for Robby Gordon and his team. They have not, however, done right by the sport as a whole.

In the aftermath of yesterday’s ruling, no driver, crewchief or team can ever again be held accountable for illegal or unapproved parts found on their racecar. Effective immediately, “I didn’t mean to” has become an acceptable excuse for any rules-related transgression.

A clear precedent has been sent, and it can never be undone.

Carl Edwards’ Roush-Fenway team now has a guaranteed excuse for that loose oil reservoir tank cover at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. All they have to say is, “We didn’t mean to.”

Any driver who speeds on pit road can now invoke the “Whoopsy Daisy Defense,” blaming a minor manufacturer’s flaw in their tachometer for an inaccurate reading.

Illegal engine parts can now be explained away simply by saying, “It came that way from the manufacturer.”

Beginning today, teams are no longer responsible for the parts and pieces bolted onto their cars. The National Stock Car Racing Commission has seen to that."

Anonymous said...

Toyphd: No, the difference in the indents would not have been obvious because the indents on the current approved nose don't match the Charger decals either.