FONTANA, Calif. - I absolutely believe that Robby Gordon's team made an honest mistake at Daytona, putting an unapprove nose on the Dodge it submitted for inspection before Daytona 500 practice began.
Here's how it was explained to me. Gordon's team decided late in the preseason to switch to Dodge and in trying to get ready to go racing it got parts to get cars to Daytona. Somewhere in the process it got a couple of noses of a type that Dodge has submitted for NASCAR approval.
That approval has not yet come.
The team goes to Daytona with these new noses and gets rejected in inspection. In NASCAR's view - the only view NASCAR is in position to have - the team submitted a car with an unapproved part.
NASCAR let the team use the same car. The nose was not confiscated, the team had to get an approved nose from some other team's crash cart and replace the section of the nose it had with the proper section of the one it "borrowed." The car was then approved and Gordon practiced, qualified and raced.
Gordon's team got a $100,000 fine, 100-point deductions and a six-race suspension for its crew chief. Which is exactly what fines for unapproved parts on this race car got last year for the teams of Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson and Dale Earnhardt Jr.
That's pretty much the end of the story, folks. Everything else you might put in the comments attached to this blog, how it wasn't Robby Gordon's fault and he had no way of knowing it was wrong and all of that, may all be 100 percent true. But it doesn't matter.
Robby Gordon's team is responsible for what's on it's race car. Not NASCAR, not Dodge, not Gillett Evernham Motorsports and not David Poole. If you don't know something is right, you need to check it out.
NASCAR treated Robby's team as fairly as that can possibly be done. Where it would be unfair would be to let the circumstances surrounding a a violation enter into the picture.
If you start weighing all of that stuff in, that's when it comes down to treating one team differently from another, and that's not right. That's the problem NASCAR needs to keep getting away from.
Isn't Dodge submitting a new nose for approval because it's better? Why else would it do that?
So if Gordon's car got through inspection with that nose on it, effectively he'd have an advantage over the other Dodge teams, at least. That's not right.
Again, this one is on the No. 7 team. Maybe you think the punishment is too steep, but it's the same thing others got for unapproved parts.
NASCAR got this one right, folks.
Thursday, February 21, 2008
NASCAR got this one right
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91 comments:
Poole you are wrong again, stop sounding like Nascar. There is no reason to levy fines like this for honest mistakes that never get to the track. The sport was not compromised, just Nascar's image.
Nascar is doing more from within to hurt the sport than anything. All this is going to do is drive away new teams and sponsors. Why would anyone want to risk investing in a sport that continually levys fines and suspensions for petty stuff like this. Is this the only way Nascar can think of to generate headlines.
I'm a fan of 50 years that will look for other entertainment this year. Goodbye Nascar
The penalty was WAY out of line. Common sense and fairness should be taken into account.
I thought the penalty was kind of steep. Thanks for reminding me that it was the same as they handed out last year.
NASCAR did the right thing for a change. Just because it was a mistake, doesn't mean NASCAR should be more lenient.
If they had been more lenient, the haters would be screaming about that.
Keep up the good work David.
No, NASCAR blew it. With as few cars that run the Sprint Cup series, there is no reason whatsoever to approach penalties with such a blunt sword.
The "new" nose was virtually identical to the approved nose, with the exception of some decorative embossing around the headlights. There was no competitive advantage to be gained even IF the problem hadn't been corrected before racetime.
The Sprint Cup is NASCAR's premier series, and bringing down the hammer on something this minor, when common sense ought prevail, is ultimately a black mark against the series and against NASCAR itself. So much for the "back to basics" approach.
So David, you're saying that all the fines need to be 100% consistent with any previous incident of the same nature, regardless of the circumstances?
By that logic, then any driver from this point forward who bashes another driver on pit road will only get a 6 week probation. And because we're being consistent regardless of circumstances, that will be the penalty even if pit road is active and full of crew members and officials.
I don't think you're thinking this through.
David,
I must respectfully disagree, at least in part. Almost all of what you said makes sense to me, but your comments about competitive advantage are disputed by Series Director John Darby, quoted as saying: "There's no difference, really, in the nose, other than the decal outlines that complement the Charger more than the Avenger. But the nose has not finished due process yet, so they had to put one of the old noses back on the car."
In addition, if you look at the way they treated Chad Knaus's mounting of an illegal device to the 48 car for Daytona 500 qualifying in 2006, that was $25,000.00, 4 races and NO points... and that was clearly a blatant attempt to gain an unfair advantage. Also, all the other penalties announced this week, were far less harsh... 50 points/$25K. Yes, I know that was Nationwide, but still.
Another good question is, why not hold Gillette Evernham responsible for providing unapproved parts to a competitor? The original mistake was theirs, with active teams providing parts to competitors, I just feel they should be held accountable as well.
rs7 said... Poole you are wrong again, stop sounding like Nascar. There is no reason to levy fines like this for honest mistakes that never get to the track.
Can you or anyone else point to or give a direct quote from the rulebook that offers mitigation or excuse for intent?
Is there a clause or sub-para that says a penalty should be say, 50 pts if the violation was not intentional as opposed to blatant disregard for the same rule and a 100 pt reduction?
Til that happens those is support of Gordon have nothing but emotion to stand on.
Anonymous said...No, NASCAR blew it. With as few cars that run the Sprint Cup series, there is no reason whatsoever to approach penalties with such a blunt sword.
Buwawawahahaha!
Surely you jest.
With the average entry list last year at the 50 mark (7 more than allowed to race) and this year looking to be the same you are seriously disconnected from reality.
Well, Poole, Nascar ALMOST got it right. If they really want to get it right, they will stop assessing penalties made up on the fly that vary by infraction and driver; and start simply not allowing an illegal car to race on Sunday.
If the owners/drivers/sponsors know there is even the slightest chance their car will not race on Sunday because it did not pass inspection on Friday, ALL cheating, rules bending, etc. would come to a screeching halt in about two weekends!
john harrisburg - "In addition, if you look at the way they treated Chad Knaus's mounting of an illegal device to the 48 car for Daytona 500 qualifying in 2006, that was $25,000.00, 4 races and NO points..."
Like apples & orange arguments do ya?
What you say is true.
It's also true that occurred far before the CoT was put in competition and far before a specific memo and plicy was stated that any infraction caught during inspec of the CoT would result in a 100 pt reduction.
To very different things gut. Very different.
Unfortunately Mr. Poole bashed NASCAR pretty bad last week. This week he has to atone for his sin by sucking up. Otherwise, Mr. Poole will find himself isolated by the boys in the ivory tower, not good for his career or his newspaper. Maybe sports journalists should have themslves a simple rule....if you can't "fit" into a NASCAR then you can't "write" about a NASCAR. Yeah, lets enforace that rule!!! :)
MArc said...
Can you or anyone else point to or give a direct quote from the rulebook that offers mitigation or excuse for intent?
Is there a clause or sub-para that says a penalty should be say, 50 pts if the violation was not intentional as opposed to blatant disregard for the same rule and a 100 pt reduction?
Til that happens those is support of Gordon have nothing but emotion to stand on.
Here you go:
12.4: General Scope of Penalties
Penalties for violation of NASCAR Rules are determined by the gravity of the violation and its effect on fairness of competition, the orderly conduct of the Event, and the interests of stock car racing and NASCAR. Such penalties may include, but are not limited to, disqualification, probation, suspension of membership or license privileges, fines and/or loss of Championship points, and/or loss of finishing position(s) in the Event. Probation may be for a specified time period to review the Member's conduct to determine whether a more severe penalty is warranted. A suspension may be total or it may be limited to a suspension of membership or license privileges at a particular race track or tracks, or for a particular series of Events, or for a specified or indefinite period of time. The NASCAR Vice President of Competition will use the following as guidelines for the imposition of penalties in the situations described below, but may assess a greater or lesser penalty depending upon the circumstances
------------------------
So, the severity of the penalty can vary based on how it impacts the fairness of the competition. Intentional attempts to cheat, like MWR fuel addetives, or HMS bending fenders for an aero advantage certainly impact the fairness of competition more than an unapproved nose with different decal outlines that even NASCAR exec John Darby stated would have no advantage.
Good enough proof?
I'm a fan of 50 years that will look for other entertainment this year. Goodbye Nascar
It's laughable how many times I've heard this type of comment. Either leave or stay, but don't act like the sport has never had problems or inconsistencies before.
NASCAR needs to leave Robby Gordon alone. He has stood up to NASCAR on several occasions & this is their way at getting him back. If this "punishment" fits Robby's mistake, then Kurt Busch should of had his NASCAR credentions pulled for life. Mr. Poole - your thoughts are foolish.
In 2007 Dodge used a avenger as their COT car. In the winter Dodge decided to use the Charger instead. The nose that they are using now is a avenger nose with charger decals. The new nose is going to look more like a charger. It is a cosmetic change that a performance change.
Anonymous said..."Here you go:
12.4: General Scope of Penalties
Penalties for violation of NASCAR Rules are determined by the gravity of the violation and its effect on fairness of competition," Yadda, yadda.
That are also based on precedent.
Precedent such as Earnhardt and DEI getting slammed in 2007 for 100 pts for wing supports that failed inspection.
Soooo. what are you advocating, that NASCAR be inconsistent?
Anonymous Anonymous said...
If this "punishment" fits Robby's mistake, then Kurt Busch should of had his NASCAR credentions pulled for life. Mr. Poole - your thoughts are foolish.
And just when has Busch been accused of, let alone actually doing it, the same infraction?
Apples and oranges guy, your argument makes no sense.
As for "poor Robby" a quick glance thru the penalties page at jayski will show "poor Robby" has nearly as many penalties imposed by NASCAR as the entire Hendrick four car team over the last few years. (and part of that time HMS had 5 cars.)
How is that possible? Poor, poor Robby!
And BTW "Mr Anonymous said..."
How do you, I or John Darby know for sure an as yet approved nose won't effect competition?
Believe it or not that IS part of the approval process. My guess is it won't considering the slight change involved, but to use that as a basis to defend Gordon is balderdash.
Hey Marc, Why don't you back off!! The difference they are trying to get across to your thick arrogant skull is the fact that NASCAR has stated in previous penalties whether they were unintentional or blatant attempts to gain a competitive advantage. It has been stated that the only difference is the decals, but since you seem to hold such utter disdain for Robby Gordon you are unwilling to look at this from any other view point than your own. No shocker there. I forgot for you to be convinced of anything you must have an actual fact sheet with references. This was an honest mistake and NASCAR knows it, there were no advantages to be had, so why the fines? Jeff Gordon was not fined at the 500 last year for his unintentional low car. Do they know for sure the it was accident? Makes you wonder.
Marc
You talk about apples and oranges with the COT, but that's no different than setting penaltys based upon which race track the offense occurs at. For the record, I couldn't care less about Robbie Gordon... I only care about fairness.
You missed my main point... Evernham should've been held equally accountable since THEY shipped the unapproved parts!
John Darby said this....
"In transformation from Avenger to Charger, Dodge is working on a replacement nose," Darby said. "There's no difference, really, in the nose, other than the decal outlines that complement the Charger more than the Avenger. But the nose has not finished due process yet, so they had to put one of the old (Avenger) noses back on the car.
"The release of that nose by the manufacturer is very premature. Everything is fine with the car. It's been back through inspection. Everything is fine."
so why fine a guy $100,000 and 100 points, effectively ruining any outside possibility Gordon had of making the chase ??
From David Poole
Folks, Evernham is just like any other vendor in this case. If Bob Nardelli from Chrysler had hand-delivered the part to Gordon himself, it's still Gordon's responsibility to have the right stuff on the car. The responsibility to be right belongs to the team.
As for NASCAR having it in for Robby, what this proves is just the opposite. By giving him the same fine that has been given to ALL teams that submit unapproved parts on the new car, it is treating Robby the same was it has treated everyone else in this situation.
If the same thing had happened to the 48 car, would any have you bought the "honest mistake" explanation? Again, as I said to start my blog, I think this was precisely that, an honest mistake. But NASCAR can't govern like that. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
You guys want to compare Mears' car being too low or Jeff Gordon's car being too low after the 150 last year. Well, I beleive (and, in Gordon's case, wrote then) that shouldn't matter. It's your job to make sure tour car doesn't have failures that put you in violation of the rules. But just because NASCAR missed on those, that doesn't mean it has to miss on this call. And again, in every place where an unapproved part has been submitted, the same thing has happened.
The nose that was on the 7 car when it first came to inspection was not approved by NASCAR. Nobody has disputed that fact. Nobody can. What I say is it doesn't matter where it came from or how it got on the car. What matters is it got there and it is it the 7 team's responsibility that it did. The rest is all quibbling.
graceanne - "Anonymous Graceann said...
Hey Marc, Why don't you back off!! The difference they are trying to get across to your thick arrogant skull is the fact that NASCAR has stated in previous penalties whether they were unintentional or blatant attempts to gain a competitive advantage."
Always count on you, don't like what's written someone has to "back off." Why don't you just cut to the chase as use the old standby acronym: STFU?
As to your point, and possible penetration to YOUR thick skull, I clearly noted the Earnhardt's pts reduction that was an "unintentional" violation and he and DEI were slammed for 100 pts.
That's called being consistent when weighing both cases.
john in harrisburg - "You missed my main point... Evernham should've been held equally accountable since THEY shipped the unapproved parts!
Didn't miss anything.
Can you cite anytime when a parts supplier has been penalized for parts shipped to a team?
I can't recall a time, and by your logic, lets go "whole hog" as the saying goes. Dump a 100 point reduction on all the Evernham teams, and while were are at it fine the Dodge Boys and Chrysler a few thousand dollars.
That used to be called passing the buck, guess not so much now a days. At least not by your reckoning.
anon # 4,054,987 said - "so why fine a guy $100,000 and 100 points, effectively ruining any outside possibility Gordon had of making the chase ??"
J. Gordon and Johnson got smacked with a 100 pt reduction in the 16th event of 2007 year and made the Chase.
Robby's is in the FIRST event of the year.
So your point is again?
" Why don't you just cut to the chase as use the old standby acronym: STFU? Well I am not quite as rude as you are so I would never tell some one to shut up. You are very good at picking apart other posters opinions. They can write their honest feelings, express how confusing the rules and penalties have become because they seem unfair when it comes to certain teams and infractions. NASCAR has no one to blame but them selves for this mess,they created this mass confusion by inconsistent with penalties. Why don't you try to see things from a fans point of view for once instead of a critic. If you were to try to use the knowledge you have for good instead of condemning all the time then maybe we might see things your way once in a while.
graceanne - "Why don't you try to see things from a fans point of view for once instead of a critic. If you were to try to use the knowledge you have for good instead of condemning all the time then maybe we might see things your way once in a while."
And the fans posting here aren't "critics?"
I could care less who sees it my way. Just like everyone else, they have "their way," I have mine, but you have been very consistent in what and how you respond to what I, post.
IF you want to state someone has a "thick arrogant skull" and base it on thin air, (i.e. allegedly giving no reference to what is unintentional or blatant rules violations) you, or anyone else will be called out for it.
You don't like it refrain from making false statements.
What are my false statements?
Poole, how much does Nascar pay you? This is crap! Why does Nascar have it out for him? He should withdraw from Nascar, start his own open wheel team and go join the newly reformed IRL. At least they won't have it out for him every weekend.
graceanne - "The difference they are trying to get across to your thick arrogant skull is the fact that NASCAR has stated in previous penalties whether they were unintentional or blatant attempts to gain a competitive advantage."
That is from your first response to my comment.
That implies because I have a "thick arrogant skull" that I have disregarded or ignored others that that make the point of infractions being "unintentional or blatant"
The reality is that is a false statement. i.e. I very plainly noted Dale Jr's penalty ("Precedent such as Earnhardt and DEI getting slammed in 2007 for 100 pts for wing supports that failed inspection.") and that was explained at the time as being inadvertent and no effort was used to gain an advantage.
Said Cup Series director John Darby: "There's no difference, really, in the nose other than the decal outlines that complement the Charger more than the Avenger. But the nose has not finished due process yet, so they had to put one of the old noses back on the car." Problem with #24? UPDATE #24 fails inspection: SPEED's Victory Lane show is reporting NASCAR is looking hard at the #24-Jeff Gordon car that won the 2nd Gatorade Duel 150 race, supposedly something with the templates.
MORE: SPEED updated their report, it seems the #24 may be too low, could be something with a shock mount, NASCAR's John Darby has been under the rear of the car a few times, still no announcement about it.
UPDATE: News came late in the day that Jeff Gordon's #24 Chevy failed a post-race inspection. The quarter panels were too low. Instead of starting the Daytona 500 on the second row, Gordon will start 42nd. That's his punishment. His victory will stand. NASCAR officials said the problem probably was unintentional. It was the fourth qualifying race win of Gordon's career and his second in a row.(ESPN.com)
AND: #24-Jeff Gordon will start 42nd in Sunday's Daytona 500 after failing post-race inspection following the second of Thursday's two 150-mile qualifying races. Because the infraction -- the rear panel was almost an inch low -- was not considered intentional to create a competitive advantage Gordon will be allowed to keep his victory in the race. Robin Pemberton, NASCAR's vice president for competition, said no further penalties would be levied against Gordon's team. It was the third straight day NASCAR's governing body passed out penalties at Daytona International Speedway. Gordon was unaware of the issue until informed during his post-race interview. "That would really suck," he said. Pemberton said the shock fastener and spacers used to hold the rear shocks that are installed during pre-race preparation for restrictor plate races were misaligned. He said it likely was a mistake made by the mechanic. "We felt it was unintentional," Pemberton said. "Actually, it was unsafe. We felt it was a part failure and unintentionally done."(ESPN.com)(2-15-2006) There are your references Marc. Now you tell me, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? Call me out!!!!
Graceann -
Again apples to oranges. That was with the old car. Warning was sent out in a memo last year that messing with the COT would earn you 100 points and $100,000. What happened? Jr., Gordon, and Johnson were found to have infractions with the COT and got 100 points fined, $100,000 fined and lost their crew cheifs for six weeks. I don't agree with NASCAR, but they set the precedent last season and they are following it now. COT issues can't be compared to issues with the old car as NASCAR has made it clear that COT infractions will be severely punished.
graceanne - can you actually put forward a cognitive argument? On anything?
As "anon" said just below your comment, squeal about [Jeff] Gordon and his shock problem, or being too low 'til you're blue in the face that has nothing to do with the current situation. Both infractions were the old car not the CORN. Period! Different car, new rules. New rules that were plainly stated before the first CORN event in 2007.
NOW, specifically speaking the CoT (CORN) "Gordon, Johnson docked 100 points for violations" - June 27, 2007.
"Junior docked 100 points for illegal rear mounting" - May 15, 2007.
Team president Max Siegel is quoted as saying, It is what it is -- it was a mistake, and it's unfortunate. But we'll move on."
A mistake... just as in Robby Gordon's case.
You want to be called out. "Call me out!!!!"
Ok you were.
Not only called out for posting a disingenuous argument that is far from germane to this case, but also for being a nitwit.
And before you go crying about that need I remind you you started the poo flinging by tossing your cheap uncalled for shot by saying I has a "thick arrogant skull."
Live by the sword, die by the sword "lady."
marc, two wrongs don't make a right. NASCAR was wrong to hit Jr. with that penalty last year, and they're wrong on Gordon. Using one wrong decision to justify a second one is folly. Yes, NASCAR is being consistent: consistently wrong.
NASCAR may not be confident in their decision on Robby's penalty. They have ENCOURAGED Robby to file an appeal.
Marc: You're the one that asked for any instance in the rule book where it spells out that intent is considered in handing out penalties. You were shown that instance. You were also shown where a NASCAR official flat-out said that what they considered a lack of intent is why they handed down the miniscule penalty they did.
You asked for an example because you were positive one wouldn't be found. Now, you're belly-aching that the example doesn't matter because the example you asked for proves you wrong.
Mr. Poole: While I understand the whole expecting consistency thing, I don't get how you can call this in NASCAR's favor. You're pretty much saying that having the wrong decal contours is as egregious an infraction as doctoring fuel and deliberately altering a car after inspection.
It's a little like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Consistency at the cost of common sense is just as bad as inconsistency.
Sorry, you both have got it wrong. I think you should stop taking paychecks from Observer and continue to get your REAL paycheck from Na$car. Na$car has it in for Robby. I am ashamed to say that I am a Na$car fan. I am very PROUD to say that I AM a Robby fan.
Carrie -
The cars were not deliberately altered after inspection. They were presented for inspection that way and they didn't pass it and weren't allowed to practice. I don't mean to sound like I'm nitpicking, but it just isn't right to say that the cars were altered after inspectiom. Jr.'s violation did get past inspection and was found later. Again, it was a mistake on the teams part and they got the 100 point penalty and all the other stuff. I didn't agree with it then and I don't agree with it now, but the Jr. and Robby situation are similar and the punishment is the same.
Carrie said..."Marc: You're the one that asked for any instance in the rule book where it spells out that intent is considered in handing out penalties. You were shown that instance."
Yep sure did. And also noted the quotes from the rulebook didn't apply completely because they have been on the books for a long time. They were also not applicable because of the CoT memo that went out prior to th first CoT event on 2007.
Nice try, but as a defense of your boy Robby you failed.
More Carie obfuscation - "I don't get how you can call this in NASCAR's favor. You're pretty much saying that having the wrong decal contours is as egregious an infraction as doctoring fuel and deliberately altering a car after inspection."
No, Poole is saying the "wrong decals" are on a piece that was not, and is still not approved for use in competition.
It's a simple concept but one some of the Robby defenders refuse to understand.
OR more correctly, ignore.
One question Carrie... how much did you pay for your "Robby Radar?" Cause it does an excellent job, no matter where in the universe something is written about your boy you hone in on it like lemmings to a cliff.
Marc...speaking of honing in like lemmings on a cliff,whatever the hell that means......You are like a buzzard on a branch.Just waiting for Poole to write an article,let say 10 or so people post their opinion...some with facts and some with just their feelings.If you don't agree and you rarely ever do,you swoop down from your branch(hiding behind a pc)and attack people for having a thought or two about something Poole has posted.Heaven forbid if they don't agree with him,for they will be chastized by your "If I don't agree with it,it isn't valid" attitude.I bet your were going nutts because Poole hadn't posted anything lately.
If someone responds to Poole's article or even someone else's post,if it makes decent sense or is their opinion then it is valid enough to post without you being a jerk.And that is putting it nicely.
From what I have seen and read,the majority of the people think Nascar, though consistant,went overboard.I agree,especially with the 100 points given the circumstances.Yeah,I know a rule is a rule and blah blah blah....But considering all the facts and circumstanses and the non blatant attempt to cheat,Nascar needs to drop the points penalty.I can only hope the appeals process will not be so narrow-minded and do this.Giving the history, doubtful.
DJ - ditto to your post.
Marc said:
Yep sure did. And also noted the quotes from the rulebook didn't apply completely because they have been on the books for a long time. They were also not applicable because of the CoT memo that went out prior to th first CoT event on 2007.>
Marc, are you saying that a rule that's been on the books for a long time no longer applies? I didn't know a rule could be ignored for that reason.
DJ, Graceann, I agree!
Mr Poole I think what get fans all twisted up IS...If a car is presented for Inspection, and it fails, and is not allowed on the track yet...WHY the fine and penalties?...I can surely understand Post qualifying or Post Race infractions a fine be levied. And if nascar want to be seen as credibile Why was the the #5 NWS car was fined so little? Does THAT rulenook not apply to that series?...and MArc, SIT DOWN! that series is nothing more than Cup Lite! Ok please MArc Please, Inquiring minds want know what you think?!
I trust David Poole's opinion.
He looks like a knowledgeable dude that is the way he makes a living.
So why would he slant his commentary and mislead his readers?
I hope I can acquire the reputation and credibility he has attained. And folks come to my site telling me that.
ZuD
Diane - "Marc, are you saying that a rule that's been on the books for a long time no longer applies? I didn't know a rule could be ignored for that reason."
No, not implying anything. I plainly said what was quoted has been there for a long time.
That doesn't mean something that comes along later can't modify what went before it.
What "was before" is just that, before. All the teams knew what would happen if they tinkered with or allowed unapproved parts on the CORN. Those that haven't followed that directive for whatever reason are paying the price.
You're not happy with the situation then go buy your Rally for Robby T-shirts and make some scam artist rich.
You'll feel better, honest.
fan #5 - "Why was the the #5 NWS car was fined so little? Does THAT rulenook not apply to that series?...and MArc, SIT DOWN! that series is nothing more than Cup Lite! Ok please MArc Please, Inquiring minds want know what you think?!"
Was the #5 car a CORN? Was it subject to the same penalties?
No, quit trying to make yourself look stupid. I know your not.
Marc,
If a rule in the rule book is no longer viable because it's been there a long time, then it's time for that section to be deleted. If they put something in the rule book that modifies something that "came before", then what "came before" should be removed.
I know I'm wasting my time trying to make a point with you because you are always right. So I'll just go on my merry way and let someone else try the impossible.
Wow. This blog hasn't been up for half a day yet and the raving hysteria and vicious personal attacks are running wild.
I agree with Nascar that its necessary to punish mistakes as well as intentional cheating -- because if you don't then you open the way for things to happen "accidently on purpose". But I think that in a case where it is so well-documentent that it was a supplier error rather than a team attempting to slip something by that it would have been justified to invoke the Except In Rare Instances clause of the rulebook and reduce the penalty.
I think that the team, the sponsors, and the fans (the rational ones at least), could have accepted a statement that this type of infraction would normally have drawn the hard hit but that the highly unusual circumstances justified cutting the usual penalty down -- perhaps by half, perhaps to 1/4.
That would have both preserved the principle of the tough penalties for COT body infractions AND acknowledged that the particular, individual situation was highly unusual.
For those who've never noticed, the penalty on the #5 Nationwide car is completely irrelevant because Busch/Nationwide and Truck series penalties have ALWAYS been lower than Cup penalties due to the difference in funding level.
Nascar can't go bankrupting modest-budget teams in the lower series with Cup sized fines.
David, here's the difference - if it were a big team like Hendrick there would be only a minor fine if anything - NASCAR came down on a "no-name" team precisely because it is a "no-name" team. This is what is so fundamentally flawed with NASCAR's approachg - they cater to the richest car owners when they should be catering to the smaller teams.
Folks, the facts here are simple. The nose on the car was the wrong nose. Nobody that says that is trying to sound like NASCAR or kiss their butt. Anybody that regularly listens to or reads David Poole should know better. Somebody on here said that the penalty would have been less severe for a Hendrick car. I HATE Hendrick, he is a felon and a dirty cheat, but last year 2 of his cars showed up with illegal noses and they received the same penalty. Joonyer's team last year left illegal wing brackets on a car from a test and sent the car through inspection. How is that a different mistake than not checking that the nose from Dodge? The 8 team got the same penalty. If you start allowing intent to be taken into affect, every time something illegal is found, all the teams will have to say is "I didn't mean for that to be there" and you will have to take their side. This is a precedent that does not need to be set. If you are going to quit watching NASCAR over this, then you are a fool. Good riddance. Quit comparing penalties from on-track incidents and penalties assessed on the old car or from a different series to this. There was a clear memo sent out to every team last year about fooling with the COT body. The penalties have been consistent with the COT. 53 other teams found a way to show up to Daytona legal. End of story.
monkeesfan - "David, here's the difference - if it were a big team like Hendrick there would be only a minor fine if anything "
And DEI isn't a "big team?"
Go ahead, I'm out of troll food.
Diane said..."If a rule in the rule book is no longer viable because it's been there a long time, then it's time for that section to be deleted. If they put something in the rule book that modifies something that "came before", then what "came before" should be removed.
Who said it wasn't viable? Just for info that's called a strawman argument, you set a false premise then use it to attack someone's position.
And I might add very common when someone can't make a valid argument on merits.
Sorry, it doesn't fly, I said "something that comes along later can't modify what went before it."
Modify, not make it not viable.
Marc, I agree with you and David on this 1, NASCAR has kept the same fines and penalties as everyone else. What i'm wondering is where did all these Robby Gordon fans come from all of a sudden. Back several years ago when he did this the first time, he couldnt buy any fans. Now all of a sudden heres a truckload of NASCAR haters jumping in to come to Robbys defense saying "LEAVE ROBBY ALONE!!!!!" To quote graceann from eariler "STFU!" Someone at RGR screwed up. Take your lumps, pay your money (it goes to needy kids anyways), sit out your six weeks and deal with it. Show your true racer spirit and overcome adversity. I'm a HMS fan, and even i agreed with the fines handed down to them. Same with Jr's team. Exhale, now I feel better
Does it make you feel better to always one up people all the time? Is that what it takes to make you happy? Most on this board have valid points, yet you seem to enjoy arguing. I know Jeff Gordon's car was not a COT, NASCAR had just stated before his infraction that anyone tempting to blacken the sport would be penalized, they were going to comedown on the teams pushing grey areas. At that point the COT was not mentioned, yet Jeff Gordon was let go with being moved to the rear of the line due to mechanic error after racing the car. I know they also stated not to mess with the COT, that has been written by you several times over. I am saying they have not been consistent then or now when using their famous word of "intent". I might also add the Rally for Robby shirts are connected with JIM BEAM, I hardly think they are scam artists. Of course I could be wrong I am just a nitwit. I don't understand much. Tell me the next time you sit and hold the hands of a LADY under going chemo for breast cancer and how you handle yourself when she asks you to remove what is left of hair on her head that you have styled for the past 10 years. Sometimes Nitwits see through people more than realize.
graceanne - "Does it make you feel better to always one up people all the time? Is that what it takes to make you happy? Most on this board have valid points, yet you seem to enjoy arguing. I know Jeff Gordon's car was not a COT,"
If you knew why toss it out there as if it was relevant to the situation?
If you have an opinion/point of view state it but don't drag completely irrelevant points into the discussion and expect not to be called on it.
Sorry, but that IS how and what debating an issue is about.
"I don't understand much. Tell me the next time you sit and hold the hands of a LADY under going chemo" yadda...yadda and etc well that's shame. Too bad, really.
And that has to do with the discussion how?
It doesn't register, I've got a thick arrogant skull remember. Somehow I knew you wouldn't let go of the nitwit thing even though it was you flingin poo first.
One with a reasonable mind would have dropped it when caught, but that's whizzed straight over your head.
Hardly surprising given your demonstrated debating skills.
Hey all...
Technically, NASCAR has to back it's policy of strict enforcement on the CoT.. black and white rules. There, Poole is correct.
Emotionally, there's a ton of support for RGM from many angles.. fans, non Robby fans, even his sponsor is stepping in with a "Save Robby" campaign.
We've all made errors, and gotten by here and there. Gordon's argument is the penalties are pretty steep for an error that was not made by his team, though in the end, it's like taxes.. no matter who prepares them for you, it's you who is liable for the accuracies.
I say Dodge needs to come forward and pay Gordon's fine, and owe him dinner for life!
Are these things (Penalties) tax deductible now that fines are going to charity?
Bruce, of Bruce's Nascar Bits
We at Jim Bam proudly stand up for Robby Gordon and the #7 Jim Beam team to appeal the excessive 100-point penalty and suspension handed down by NASCAR following the Daytona 500.
Neither Robby nor his Crew Chief or team were deliberately attempting to circumvent NASCAR rules. The mistake was discovered by NASCAR officials during the very first inspection prior to qualifying which was more than a week before the Daytona 500.
Robby's team changed out all 11+ noses on all of the new Dodge cars and the three built specifically for Daytona overnight. The approved nose was on his car in time for qualifying.
Top teams and drivers have been stricken with similar fines for intentional reasons, but Robby's team earned an honest 8th place finish in the Daytona 500 through tireless dedication, quality, and character - not because of rule violations.
Your decision unfairly penalizes Robby, his sponsors and his fans. We fully support the rules of NASCAR, but we ask that you closely review all the facts, not just in the letter of the law, but in the spirit of the rules of competition.
Robby is a man of true character and talent. As the only driver/owner to finish in the top ten this past weekend, he gives fans something to talk about
Marcm
Give it a rest , DAvid is a big boy and can defend himself..
The rule Robby was accused of vs. The 5 Nationwide CAr, and the 99 Nationwide car are way off..
If you actually read the verbage, what the 5 did and what the 990 did were a heck of alot worse, but got less points, fines etc. Hell the 99 got no points taken...
marc, DEI has never been hit with fines that hurt, and as kurt2 points out, NASCAR hit Robby Gordon but not the two BGN cars that got caught doing worse. It's favoritism by NASCAR, Marc, accept that fact. The onoly way they'll ever prove there's no favoritism is fines and penalties that actually hurt the biggest teams - seven-digit fines and four-digit point penalties to the biggest teams, Hendrick in particular. That's what the Robby Gordon penalty amounts to.
Whoa whoa whoa… wait a minute people! Sorry I haven’t weighed in (as if you’re all disappointed), but David is right on. For starters, those of you who state that he is on NASCARs payroll clearly don’t pay attention; he is the first to criticize NASCAR when it is due. He is also the first to say when they have done it right; the mere belief that because you agree with something coming from them means you are on the payroll is downright ludicrous.
Hey, I feel bad for Robbie Gordon. Maybe it was indeed an innocent mistake, but the truth is none of us will even know that. Can anyone imagine if it was the ‘other’ Gordon that did this? We would be running at least 10:1 in favor of banning Jeff for life. But its Robbie, poor little Robbie who NEVER does anything wrong (note sarcasm please), poor little Robbie who is a single car team (who’s choice has that been?). Big bad NASCAR is trying to screw Robbie because he is a small team, because of what happened in Montreal last year, because they love HMS, because they love Chevy, whatever…
People out here are screaming that NASCAR is inconstant with their penalties, and you go on to cite ‘old car’ references and Busch/Nationwide references, but the fact is when NASCAR sent out the memo stating any ‘modifications’ or ‘cheating’ with the NEW CAR would be dealt with severely, then your arguments are now null and void. Further, the memo supercedes the rule book, as it was intended to be a CHANGE/MODIFICATION to the rules as written. NASCAR is well within their rights to do that, and it’s not without precedent.
NASCAR has been extremely consistent with new car violations - $100000.00, 100 points, and a 6 week crew chief suspension. That’s not the case with Busch cars (perhaps it should be, or at least a similar consistency), nor was it the case with the old car. We all know that they have been very inconsistent in the past, and now that they are attempting to correct that, you people are all over them because it’s ‘Poor Robbie Gordon who has NEVER broken a rule’.
On a related note, Monekyboy has again shown he is a fool – advocating larger fines for larger teams? That is the very definition of ‘arbitrary and inconsistent’ justice; since when should punishments be based on ability to pay? You break a rule; you know the price to be paid. How can consistency in fines/penalties across the board be favoritism? BTW, you wonder if DEI has ever been hit with a penalty that hurt? Well, are you suggesting that the 100 points and 6 week crew chief suspension didn’t hurt last year? A $100 speeding ticket hurts someone who makes $15000/year worse than someone who makes $150000, but the fine is the same and the message is clear – if you cant do the time, don’t do the crime. The minute we start dictating punishments on ability to pay, be it in sports or society, we lose any definition of the word justice all in the name of ‘fairness’.
You all wanted constancy in NASCAR, well now you have it. Be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it.
On a positive note, the message to all teams has been sent loud and clear. Break a new car rule and you know exactly what you will get. There are no longer any grey areas, thank God!
kurt2 - "Marcm
Give it a rest , DAvid is a big boy and can defend himself..
The rule Robby was accused of vs. The 5 Nationwide CAr, and the 99 Nationwide car are way off.."
Quit channeling the resident lunatic monkeesfans and use just a bit of what may, or may not be in your cranial cavity.
There IS NO valid comparison between what has been or will be handed out to a NNS car and team for a rules violation and what Robby has received for a violation on the CORN.
Period!
Marc: The reason I posted Jeff Gordon's infraction was because NASCAR backed off. They felt the intent was due to mechanic error, not much different from Robby's infraction except the COT being involved. They stilled stated BEFORE Jeff's infraction consistency was going to be upheld in all occurances from that time forward. They failed to keep their word, be it COT or the old cup car. It reason I posted the story of the Lady with chemo was to prove that you sir, have no compassion for the feelings of people, it blew right over your head like the wind. You could care less if anyone draws another breath as long as you are correct or win in your battle of words. No matter how you look at the infraction of Robby Gordon, he was penalized unfairly. He had not raced that car, unlike the other cars that have been penalized. He continues to be a man that has beaten the odds of surviving in NASCAR where even larger teams had folded and closed up and left. Robby has surprised many people by keeping his team in the top 35 in points and even more so last week at Daytona. For a sponsor to step up and show support for him shows that maybe NASCAR needs to rethink the penalty. My debating skills don't worry me, that is not on my list in life. I have better things to do. You see I have a life, I have a family, friends and people I care about, I don't thrive on correcting people or calling them out to see fact sheets for proof of what they say or think. Their opinions matter to me. Life is short Marc, you need to ease up, its passing you. Stress kills.
Yeah!MArc wins!!He is the Godfather of Blogging and is the next in line once Poole retires his thrown.And right their is his noble steed NH nascar fan.
You win MArc.Are you not excited?Man,you threw out that "Period!" and it truly took the all mighty blogness out of us.We are not worthy your blogmanhindnus.....LOL!
G Anne,don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweatty stuff.
Wow,just watched an exciting truck race....not.How bout you MArc,did you watch it?Who is your favorite driver in Cup?What are your thoughts on racing in Cali?I am just curious what you think of the racing and the drivers and the tracks sometime,instead of your opinion on Kurt2's cranial cavity or your lovely comments to Ganne "live by the sword,die by the sword".You have a nice evening and enjoy the "Busch" race and the "Winston" Cup race.
ifixem2448....So "someone @ RGR screwed up"??Not according to Dodge.
Hey Marc,
Guess what... you're irrelevant.
Folks, the guy is an arrogant blow hard. Ignore his posts and he will go away.
If you want to post your thoughts or opinions, great. If all you want to do is belittle the opinions of others, you were never really a fan so why should we care?
David,
You said: "Folks, Evernham is just like any other vendor in this case. If Bob Nardelli from Chrysler had hand-delivered the part to Gordon himself, it's still Gordon's responsibility to have the right stuff on the car. The responsibility to be right belongs to the team."
No, he's not. Other vendors don't field teams in the event. Who can say that Evernham didn't knowingly supply unapproved parts to handicap a competitor? Now, I don't think he did... anymore than you think Gordon intended to cheat... but just as you argue that NASCAR can't consider intent for Gordon, how can they consider intent for Evernham?
Think THAT one all the way through.
Oh, and for the record... I'm a die hard Earnhardt fan, both Sr. and Jr. and I ALWAYS root against Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson (and don't particularly like Robbie Gordon).
Oh, I get it now...
Perfectly acceptable to call names unless unless you disagree with the post. And if you support anything from NASCAR, you are an apologist and must be on a payroll somewhere. And having intellegent discussion using actual facts to support yourself is only ok if it supports your specific viewpoint. Marc is being lambasted for supporting his point of view with facts, despite the fact that people rotinely attack him personally; but if he fights back, he is the ass? Hmmmm... kind of sounds like the NASCAR-like double standard that all of you are complaining about, even when in the Robbie Gordon case its as far from a double standard as you can get.
So its ok to make an exception for Robbie because he has a heart warming story - single car team that struggles to survive so bending or breaking the rules is ok. But God forbid the evil HMS do anything.
Anyone out there want to tell me that if it were Johnson or (J) Gordon that this happened to that you all wouldnt be looking to string them up? At least Monkeesfan is honest enough to want bigger fines for bigger teams; despite me disagreeing with that stance.
Yeah, poor old Robbie Gordon...
Take your medicine NH.Do you need a passy with all that whining?Fraudian slip there bud as no one called him an ass.Correct?Like.I said,noble steed...you,MArc and Poole(half the time,because he doesn't know what fence to climb because he will write an article that make sense for us fans and then do his NASCAR stance).
NH Icanttellyouareanascarfan....I'm not calling names because you have an opinion about the post at hand....it is the fact that as soon as people start ganging up and disagreeing with Poole,you two tools start with the itemising of posts of anyone that doesn't agree with you.IS THAT NOT ACCURATE?
Trust me dude,I would love to get from behind the pc and tell you and your sidekick what I think about your...I'm not even sure what the adjective or adverb would be to describe the pompus notions you sling at the majority of us "real fans".
So,where is your boy?
I would assume HMS fan.So how do you like Jr and Mears?Right up ther right?Yeah,whatever....I could give a rats ass about past penalties and consistancy.Can you in a non HMS thought process,put what your boys did blantantly vs. what DODGE admittedly messed up on and RGR had no idea??SERIOUSLY?
Now go away..........
DJ: Don't waste your time. I don't even think they have a favorite driver or team. They probably don't even watch the races. You can get all the info. they use out of books and newspapers. The heartflet opinions and views come from real fans not book worms. To bad they missed the articles from Jim Beam and Dodge, they showed their support for Robby. NASCAR needs to step up and show us fans their human as well.
dj...
Ass or whatever adjective (and ass has been used on several previous posts, I’m using it metaphorically here), the bottom line is you just proved that if you don’t agree with the mainstream mob mentality, and then you will be called names. Go and look through the last few months; anytime myself or Marc or anyone else dares agree with NASCAR then we are chastised. And we are criticized because we - GASP - back ourselves up with cold hard facts. You people criticize Poole when he agrees with NASCAR as well; yet sing his praises when he disagrees with them. You come up with completely unrelated examples to any discussion at hand and think that backs you up. For example, using this specific post, when the discussion is about COT/’new car’ penalties and you bring up 'old car' penalties or Nationwide penalties, then you have no real argument other than pointing out that NASCAR has a history of being inconsistent when it comes to penalties. It has no bearing on the one true point that David made, and that was that there is NO leeway with COT penalties. If you go back and look at the history of this blog over the past few years, anytime NASCAR penalties come up, everyone is overwhelmingly screaming about NASCAR being inconsistent. Now, you finally got what you wanted - consistency - and that’s NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU??? Because it’s poor ole Robbie Gordon and the meanies at NASCAR are out to get him again? Puh-leeze! You all wanted consistency, and you all know damn well that if it were Johnson/Knaus you would all be screaming for his head on a silver platter. (I know my theory is true because I have brought it up twice already – this is the third time – and nobody disagrees with it; they just ignore it and pretend that I didn’t say it because it again discredits them).
DJ, you even so much as admitted that the minute Poole writes something positive about NASCAR then its 'against the fans' ("half the time,because he doesn't know what fence to climb because he will write an article that make sense for us fans and then do his NASCAR stance'). If NASCAR is that bad, then LEAVE. Really, go away... why do people who hate NASCAR continue to stick around? Maybe... just maybe... as the #2 sport in the nation, they are doing something right?
DJ writes… “it is the fact that as soon as people start ganging up and disagreeing with Poole,you two tools start with the itemising of posts of anyone that doesn't agree with you.IS THAT NOT ACCURATE?”
I cant speak for Marc, but I can say when I agree with David, I will say so despite what the mob out here thinks. Do I always agree with him? Nope. Do I agree often? Yes. Has he swayed me to see different sides of an issue that I hadn’t thought of? Of course, he is a talented writer and usually manages to back up his opinions with facts, and I tend to read things with an open mind. So I would say it is indeed accurate that I will always defend well educated, informed discussion.
BTW, I support NASCAR being consistent because that’s what they have said they are going to do – be consistent. They are finally doing what they said they were going to do, which is follow the rules that they have finally put in writing. It’s what we all wanted. I also think that the situation with Robbie was probably accidental, but the bottom line is that it’s his and his crew chiefs responsibility to present a legal car at inspection, which they didn’t do. So intentional or accidental, he is getting punished (like if you didn’t intend to be doing 80 in a 65, you still get a ticket). It’s the rules and they are in writing. Anyone who disagrees need only go back a few blogs and see how many people chastised NASCAR for being inconsistent with the punishment handed to Kurt Busch less than two weeks ago! How soon we forget!!!
So DJ, what makes a real fan? Hating everything about NASCAR? Inability to maintain an open mind during actual educated discussion? Failure to consider actual true facts when formulating an opinion?
Does it matter who I am a fan of? And trust me, I am a fan... my entire life, now 39 years. I have posted my driver in the past, do some research and see for yourself if you care to do so. I am not Johnson or Gordon fan, but have made the observation that the rabid hatred for these two is right up there with the hatred for NASCAR. Maybe that’s another qualification to be a 'real fan' - hating HMS (Dale Jr excluded of course).
Oh yes, dj, thank you for the “I would love to get from behind the pc and tell you and your sidekick what I think about your...” threat or whatever, it just goes to show the level of class you have… I don’t like what’s being said and cant deal with true debate so I’m gonna threaten people… Nice. Sure helps perpetuate the stereotype of the ‘real fans’.
Graceann, as both I and Marc have pointed out in the past, multiple times, you are entitled to your opinions... just don’t base them as facts when the actual facts don’t support it.
John - Harrisburg, NC said - "No, he's not. Other vendors don't field teams in the event. Who can say that Evernham didn't knowingly supply unapproved parts to handicap a competitor?"
Jeebus H. in a ferris wheel John, do you hear black helicopters overhead also?
Evernham knowingly supply a team, a team he just aligned with to supply engines and engineering, with bad parts!!!?
That lunacy aside, what makes GEM the only "vendor" in the sport? If that's true what does that make Roush-Fenway Racing? Are they a "non-vender" when they supply all Ford teams with engines and engineering expertise?
What about RCR, they supply engines to other teams, are they not a vendor?
Setting aside your laughable conspiracy theory, you can't even get basic facts correct, which makes responding to you of little value.
nh_nascar fan - "Marc is being lambasted for supporting his point of view with facts, despite the fact that people rotinely attack him personally; but if he fights back, he is the ass? Hmmmm... kind of sounds like the NASCAR-like double standard that all of you are complaining about,"
The hell you say! You mean they want it their way or the highway? Facts be damned?!
Their skin is not so thick when they decide to toss around a few invectives, but low the one that rightfully tosses them back, the self-righteous indignation runs rampant when tossed back. (and yes graceanne, I'm lookin' at you)
dj - "it is the fact that as soon as people start ganging up and disagreeing with Poole,you two tools start with the itemising of posts of anyone that doesn't agree with you.IS THAT NOT ACCURATE?"
Not e.v.e.n close. What is reproduced, i.e. quoted, from other commenter's are inaccurate statements based on the facts on hand, or statements that bring totally irrelevant incidents and false comparisons into the conversation.
"Yeah!MArc wins!!He is the Godfather of Blogging and is the next in line once Poole retires his thrown.And right their is his noble steed NH nascar fan.
Thanks, glad you noticed, even if it does come from you and means little to nothing.
"Wow,just watched an exciting truck race....not.How bout you MArc,did you watch it?"
No.
"Who is your favorite driver in Cup? Don't have one, if they made it as far as they have they all deserve praise or criticism when warranted.
What are your thoughts on racing in Cali?
Not enough of them, second event should be held at Infineon, but the too tight sched prohibits it.
Think Zucker Pres. of Auto Club Speedway is a couple nuts short of a complete Snickers Bar in how she promotes the track.
Happy now? I have my doubts.
graceanne - "DJ: Don't waste your time. I don't even think they have a favorite driver or team. They probably don't even watch the races. You can get all the info. they use out of books and newspapers. The heartflet opinions and views come from real fans not book worms. To bad they missed the articles from Jim Beam and Dodge, they showed their support for Robby. NASCAR needs to step up and show us fans their human as well."
How is not having a favorite team or driver a bad thing or, apparently in your mind, disqualify anyone from having an opinion on the sport, it's drivers or teams?
OMG... "bookworms" should be shunned, I guess. I could say that explains a lot about you, but won't.
Why do you assume I haven't read the Jim Beam response? Because it fits nicely with a preconceived notion and agenda?
Nice try, you'd be wrong if that's the case.
I think you have placed words in my post Marc. I never said bookworms should be shunned. You also have been reading between the lines, as you tend to do at times, and putting your own interpretations to turn work for you. If you reread the posts Mr. Poole did in fact agree with me and state that they did miss on Jeff Gordon's infraction during the duels in 2007. That was my point they have not been consistent with the intent. There was no way Robby Gordon's team could tell this was the wrong nose when Dodge sent it to him with the same identical part number as the old part number. It was a complete mistake and NASCAR should look at all the evidence and admit the maybe Robby did not intend to do this on purpose. Why can't you see this?
Nh...you feel better now after that long disertation?Thing is,I get bored after about the first or second paragraph and now Iv'e bascially forgot what you said...
I believe you were missing the point of my post.You seem to use consistancy alot in your discussion.I said I could give a crap about that.Others maybe,so address them.This whole deal with me is the way you 2 come to the aid of Poole when people start diasagreeing with his thoughts.Mainly it is the way ya'll do it and try to breakdown someone for having a thought about the topic at hand.Again,missing the point in that I don't care that ya'll think differently than the "masses".Good for you and good for anyone else that has a thought or disagreement.Good that ya'll bring facts and are such great debaters.I think my feeling on the way ya'll conduct things is right on,especially MArc.He disagrees with almost everyone!Can you deny that?Anyway,I said the way I felt about the ridiculous way ya'll disect each poster and their thoughts.That's it and I'm sure nothing will change.
As far as me showing how much class I have.....That was not a threat about coming from behind a pc.Trust me again,I have plenty of class,but I can also mix it up with any "class" of people and we all have a good time.Sorry you felt "threatened".Give me a break.I guess I'd rather "debate" face to face than through a pc.But that is all we got.Anyway dude,enjoy the race as I'm done with this.Come tailgate with me in Charlotte and have a beer or 14 and I'll shake your hand.Maybe you 2 are not as bad as your posts make you out to be....
MArc,thanks for your answers to my questions.You also enjoy the race and try not to be so arrogant and stuffy and act like your view is the only view.That's pretty much what my thoughts are about with my posts.Same invite to you as NH....
I'm done......
Oh yeah....RALLY FOR ROBBY!
I am a a loss on how 2 are attempting to doubt the validity of the violations NASCAR cmae out with , I am speaking of 3 teams alone.
1- The 7 car(12-4-Q (car, car parts, components and/or equipment used do not conform to NASCAR rules); and 20-3.10A (unapproved front bumper cover) .
2-The 5 Nationwide: (12-4-Q (car, car parts, components and/or equipment used that do not conform to NASCAR rules); 20A-3.1.1E (1) (the rear ends of the spoiler did not meet the specified height); and 20A-3.12.1A (altered rear spoiler after passing template inspection to enhance aerodynamic performance) of the 2008 NASCAR rule book. The violation occurred following practice on Feb. 14.
3- the 99 Nationwide car (12-4-A, 12-4-Q and 20A-5.10.1B(3) (carburetor venturies exceeded the specified size).
Ok first and foremost the 5 WAS ON THE TRACK prior to getting caught... The 7 never hit the track , nor did the 99.
The 99 gets NO LOSS of points? For cheating with the Carb? Gimme a break..
Fairness and consisntency? WHERE
Oddly enought Jr wants to appeal to get his CC back and admits they cheated..
Funny Marc you have to resort to insults and namecalling when challenged
nh_nascarfan,
Do you get the same monetary fine for driving 70 in a 65 mph zone as you get for driving 85 in a 65 mph zone? I don't think so.
Too funny David, no bias at all towards certain ones and not PRO NASCAR? Laughable..
Read your own comments..
" Representatives for Robby Gordon’s sponsor, Jim Beam, handed out 3,000 black and red “RALLY FOR ROBBY” T-shirts at the track Saturday, trying to stir popular support against this week’s penalties against Gordon’s team.
For what it cost to get 3,000 T-shirts printed and shipped, couldn’t the sponsor just as easily have paid the salary for someone to make sure the team is putting approved parts on its car?"
Nice shot, since your in the media David it wasnt a team member whom screwed it, it was DOdge..
graceanne - "I think you have placed words in my post Marc. I never said bookworms should be shunned. You also have been reading between the lines, as you tend to do at times, and putting your own interpretations to turn work for you."
Really? I'm reading something that's not there?
Funny that,,, but here athey are just for clarification: They probably don't even watch the races. You can get all the info. they use out of books and newspapers. The heartflet opinions and views come from real fans not book worms.
See to you, and very plainly stated is I and those in disagreement aren't "real fans" 'cause we get our info and use only info from "books" and "newspapers," we are to be discounted as having valid points of view. There is no mistake in your words and there has not been any twisting of their meaning by me.
In addition, you complain that I have inserted meaning that is not meant or present in your statement.
Yet it's permissible, apparently, for you to assume when where and how I obtain my NASCAR news and further assume I may not even watch the races.
What a completely absurd and ignorant stance, one you can't possibly know for fact. You "madam" are a hypocrite of the first order.
For the record you are no where close to being correct in a baseless and ludicrous assumption.
My feed reader at present contains no less than 50 NASCAR specific blogs and media outlets. It also contains over 125 feeds that cover everything from ARCA, NHRA, F1, F2 & F3, Speedcar series, Asian GP2, Asian F3 Australian V8 Series etc....
They are checked at minimum 3 times each day in order to keep up to date in all racing not just NASCAR.
So no, once again you are so far off in your assumption as to be laughable.
Not surprising at all.
Marc,
It's not about your opinion, it's not about disagreeing... it's about how you can't seem to express disagreement without putting others down, calling names or mistating other's positions.
If you have a point, make it. If you have to trash other's points, then you don't have one.
Without disagreement, NASCAR wouldn't be nearly so much fun, it's like arguing a referee's call in a football game. But as one NASCAR blogger used to say, "you have the right to disagree, but not to be disagreeable."
It saddens me that so far, I have yet to find one sports forum upon which fans (and I hope that we are all truly fans) can have a discussion about anything without having some turn to personal attacks, put downs, expressions of superiority and questioning of other's intelligence and fan status.
It's important to remember that mud cannot be thrown, without leaving the hand that threw it muddy. Let's try to rise above the level of tabloid journalism here. Most non-fans think NASCAR fans are a bunch of stupid redneck hicks... what do we do to prove them wrong?
gj - "Nh...you feel better now after that long disertation?Thing is,I get bored after about the first or second paragraph and now Iv'e bascially forgot what you said..."
It's hardly surprising you have trouble keeping your concentration after a para or two. Really, it's not.
Of course it would have been shorter had I not granted your request and answered a couple of your questions. One you obviously didn't give a damn about anyway.
Why am I not surprised you get what you ask for then cry about it?
"It's hardly surprising you have trouble keeping your concentration after a para or two. Really, it's not."
Oh Marc,
You just proved my point. Don't bother to reply... there's nothing to say. You speak, but you do not listen. True conversation is two-way.
kurt2 - "Funny Marc you have to resort to insults and namecalling when challenged"
No what's actually funny, sad truth be known, is you make that charge with no basis in fact. Go to the top of the thread and start reading. It' tough I know but try.
The first name calling was not instituted by me and the only persons/persons I have done so in response are to those that started that lunacy first.
I expect an apology in... well actually I don't expect one.
john in harrisberg - "It's not about your opinion, it's not about disagreeing... it's about how you can't seem to express disagreement without putting others down, calling names or mistating other's positions."
Again, you like kurt2, need to back up read the post from the top and note who it was that started any form of name calling and who has been responded to in kind.
It wasn't me and those that did were in fact responded to in the same fashion as they addressed me.
Maybe you brush off being called names but I don't now, haven't in the past and won't any time soon if at all.
"Dems da" rules live by them or suffer.
kurt2 - "Nice shot, since your in the media David it wasnt a team member whom screwed it, it was DOdge.."
Who installed the part if it wasn't a member of the RGM team?
Secondly, Dodge didn't ship or make the part, it was produced by the Five Star company from California who make many stock car parts for NASCAR and short track series and the part in question was shipped by a third party not Dodge, not Chrysler, not GEM.
Cobb webbs......crickets......an echo.......distant wolf sounds......your sthhickk is played out....go get on another message board...........whooooooo,the bogger man is cawlling....whoooooooo.
Oh yeah...RALLY FOR ROBBY!
dj - "Cobb webbs......crickets......an echo.......distant wolf sounds......your sthhickk is played out....go get on another message board...........whooooooo,the bogger man is cawlling....whoooooooo.
Oh yeah...RALLY FOR ROBBY!
Apparently not as played out as you imply.
You still can't resist responding.
Oh yeah... this isn't a message board, this is a blog. Vast difference.
Marc,
You are waiting for an apology... Please hold your breath and wait..
Your make some tired at times as you sit behind the kyboard and soley defend David..
You would have no normal concept of the error that occured that was at no fault of GEM or RGM..
Can you point out 2 time on THIS blog where you agreed with anyone???????
Going to sleep soon, been up way to damn long with lovely CA...
kurt2 - "You are waiting for an apology... Please hold your breath and wait..
Don't worry my respiration rate remained at its normal rate.
"You would have no normal concept of the error that occured that was at no fault of GEM or RGM.."
On the contrary, I countered a factual error on your part, GEM & Dodge had nothing to do with supplying the part it was produced by Five Star Bodies and shipped by a third party.
But don't let a little thing like facts get in your way.
"Can you point out 2 time on THIS blog where you agreed with anyone???????"
Do you even think about what you spew?
I mean really, you've already accused me off agreeing with everything Poole writes. So that statement is patently false.
And finally: "The part in question was built by the company Five Star, which produces the nose and other parts for all manufacturers. The nose then was shipped to EPP, which sent it out to Robby Gordon Motorsports."
One would think someone that has so ardently defended Robby would kone who built the parts in question.
Guess not huh? More important to look incorrect and knee-jerk yourself into an untenable position.
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