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F1 att...Marc, your link is not believable, period. F1 attendence at Indy started at 270,000 and then fell below 100,000 tire fiasco or no tire fiasco and a lot of the attendance came from corporate bulk-buys to pad attendance (it's how SMI and some ISC tracks like Chicago and even Fontana pad their attendance), and the result is F1 is gone from the US yet again. <BR/><BR/>You actually expected any fans to pay to see F1?<BR/><BR/>ALMS does not average 80,000; it's flat false on its face; the numbers you cite are cooked by yourself. <BR/><BR/>Road racing is a niche and you are a liar.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-43472816156357060782008-08-18T20:51:00.000-04:002008-08-18T20:51:00.000-04:00asholafan - "Second, the link you gave is irreleve...asholafan - <I>"Second, the link you gave is irrelevent because even if your numbers are believable all they illustrate is how much of a niche, and nothing more, road racing is."</I><BR/><BR/>Not believable to you because even the most reliable and honest sources you discount if they don't fit the alternate universe that you apparently you reside in.<BR/><BR/>Some "niche," F1 attendance at Indy hovered around 150 to 200 thousand for each event held, it only dipped below 200k because of the tire fiasco and would resume at the 200k level when F1 returns to Indy.<BR/><BR/>American Le Mans series averages over 80k per event, that's not a niche, only to you and a result of you once again shown to be a fool an unable to admit defeat and slink out of the thread.<BR/><BR/>And BTW the NASCAR owned Grand Am series has also increased both TV ratings and attendance in the double digits with the Daytona event packing in over 100 thousand fans.<BR/><BR/>Again, not a "niche" no matter how much you spin or deny it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-60056467156876375752008-08-18T16:11:00.000-04:002008-08-18T16:11:00.000-04:00Marc, you didn't verify history to make so fraudul...Marc, you didn't verify history to make so fraudulent a statement as you do in post #42.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-56599079267461930232008-08-18T16:10:00.000-04:002008-08-18T16:10:00.000-04:00Marc, first of all, I cited Ascot Park as one exam...Marc, first of all, I cited Ascot Park <EM>as one example</EM> of the fact that ovals regularly outdrew road races from the beginning. In further attacking my point about superspeedways, you forget that from the beginning the track everyone wanted to emulate was the first superspeedway - Indianapolis. No one wanted to build another Ascot; the goal was to try and duplicate the size and depth of Indianapolis. That it took many years to get off the ground is true enough, but the fact was then and now that it was and is superspeedways that were and are racing's destiny.<BR/><BR/>Second, the link you gave is irrelevent because even if your numbers are believable all they illustrate is how much of a niche, and nothing more, road racing is. The audience for road racing simply isn't there beyond niche status; not enough to justify having even one road race in NASCAR or IRL.<BR/><BR/>The end result Marc is that you're not just wrong, you're dishonest. Still.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Kill the road races - make NASCAR and IRL what real racing is - all superspeedways.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-48341732768062000712008-08-16T18:27:00.000-04:002008-08-16T18:27:00.000-04:00And BTW monkeesASS - "Marc, American racing is sup...And BTW monkeesASS - <I>"Marc, American racing is superspeedways, not road courses. What part of this fact don't you want to accept?</I><BR/><BR/>Seems you cited Ascot Park as one of the early examples of oval racing in the U.S., a correct example I might add.<BR/><BR/>But here's the problem with that:<BR/><BR/>Ascot opened in 1932, NASCAR's first super speedway is generally regarded as Darlington that opened in 1950. (some argue Occoneechee Speedway in 1949 was)<BR/><BR/>That's 58 years of "superspeedway" racing and 76 years of short track oval racing using Ascot example.<BR/><BR/>The end result monkeesASS is you're wrong on both counts. <BR/><BR/>Using verifiable history as the gauge road racing is NOT a niche sport and "superspeedway" racing is NOT as American as short tack racing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-48797693792534176212008-08-15T18:49:00.000-04:002008-08-15T18:49:00.000-04:00asshola - "I told you those road racing series ARE...asshola - <I>"I told you those road racing series ARE NOT GAINING IN RATINGS OR ATTENDNECE. Your assertion to the contrary is false, palpably so."</I><BR/><BR/>And I gave you the link to prove you're a buffoon of the first order in arguing ratings and attendance numbers.<BR/><BR/>As for your disagreement over "cite/site" Buwawahaha...<BR/>and you have the unmitigated audacity to claim I can't read.<BR/><BR/>Here nitwit my direct quote: <I>"On point, Really, oval racing preceded road racing in the U.S.? Got a <B>cite</B> for that that proves oval racing occurred prior to 1895?"</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-52502084723186602662008-08-14T11:07:00.000-04:002008-08-14T11:07:00.000-04:00Marc, American racing is superspeedways, not road ...Marc, American racing is <EM>superspeedways</EM>, not road courses. What part of this fact don't you want to accept?Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-31468379948602552652008-08-14T11:06:00.000-04:002008-08-14T11:06:00.000-04:00uh, Marc, it was site you meant in that first cont...uh, Marc, it was site you meant in that first context. You insult the reader's intelligence enough already; try to be truthful for a change even in comparatively small areas.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, I said go through NSSN's archives - they've chronicled the sport's history and have shown that it is ovals, not road courses, that made racing in the US. Can you not read properly to start with?<BR/><BR/>I told you those road racing series ARE NOT GAINING IN RATINGS OR ATTENDNECE. Your assertion to the contrary is false, palpably so. Who's being made the fool here, the one telling the truth or the one, yourself, lying?<BR/><BR/>All I did was tell the truth; you just did a John Edwards. Again.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-43608279944968013482008-08-13T21:09:00.000-04:002008-08-13T21:09:00.000-04:00And BTW, I almost forgot asshat... oops let me rep...And BTW, I almost forgot asshat... oops let me rephrase that "asshola"...<BR/><BR/>I lied about Grand-am attendance?<BR/><BR/>How so. <A HREF="http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/grand-am-booming-attendance-at-barber-round/" REL="nofollow">Read it</A> and weep!<BR/><BR/>Life must SUCK when facts keep smacking you square in the butt!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-18066745652685062432008-08-13T21:04:00.000-04:002008-08-13T21:04:00.000-04:00monkeesnitwit - "Marc, the more you try to defend ...monkeesnitwit - <I>"Marc, the more you try to defend yourself the bigger idiot you make yourself. I don't need a site to make a point (just go back through the archives of National Speed Sport News if you're going to be a big baby about wanting sites); </I><BR/><BR/>Umm, excuse me but it's "cite" as in, short for "citation," and as opposed to <A HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=site&x=29&y=18" REL="nofollow">site</A>.<BR/><BR/>You can thank me later for the education, not that it will sink in, I'm just sayin' is all.<BR/><BR/>NSSN is the cite of your chosing?<BR/><BR/>Ok, but it seems to have an <A HREF="http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/racing-news/road-racing/" REL="nofollow">entire section</A> devoted to nothing but road racing.<BR/><BR/>And I noticed in a knee-jerk reaction to being made the fool once again you totally forgot to respond to why those road racing series' are gaining in both attendance and TV ratings.<BR/><BR/>But then I never expected you to, that's your preferred modus operandi, ignore the point and sail off on some tangent.<BR/><BR/>Congrats, you've lived up to your reputation, such as it is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-62358922671999392862008-08-13T18:13:00.000-04:002008-08-13T18:13:00.000-04:00Marc, the more you try to defend yourself the bigg...Marc, the more you try to defend yourself the bigger idiot you make yourself. I don't need a site to make a point (just go back through the archives of <EM>National Speed Sport News</EM> if you're going to be a big baby about wanting sites); you are the one who needs proof because the premises you come up with are ridiculous and never have any basis in the sport's history; you just throw stuff out there because you have this obsessive hatred of points I make.<BR/><BR/>The fact - <EM>fact</EM> - is that oval track racing preceded road racing, outran it enormously in popularity, and relegated road racing to a niche. You whine about me confusing opinion with fact, I do no such thing. <BR/><BR/>Prior to 1949 oval racing was not as organized as it would be, but it was countrywide, with Ascot Park in CA among many other oval tracks drawing strong crowds, first with midget car racing, later with stock cars. <BR/><BR/>Your stats about the American Le Mans Series are bogus - they are not to be believed so don't cite them,. Your premise is a lie. The Grand Am race you cite <EM>did not have its biggest attendence in six years</EM> - again, you are lying through your teeth.<BR/><BR/>Go ahead yourself you punk, try to come up with some kind of credible argument for a change.<BR/><BR/>Real racing is SUPERSPEEDWAYS ONLY.<BR/><EM>That is a fact, not an opinion.</EM> Road racing is a niche, with no place in American road racing - that is a fact, not an opinion.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-42445285370546453072008-08-13T15:24:00.000-04:002008-08-13T15:24:00.000-04:00monkeesfan - "Marc, revisionist history IS that po...monkeesfan - <I>"Marc, revisionist history IS that poster's comment. Oval track racing long preceded those road races you mention and were always far more popular."</I><BR/><BR/>(As an aside... gee, someone else notes your propensity to confuse fact with opinion/fiction. I sense a pattern here.)<BR/><BR/>On point, Really, oval racing preceded road racing in the U.S.? Got a cite for that that proves oval racing occurred prior to 1895?<BR/><BR/>Do you mean prior to 1947?<BR/><BR/>Again, cite a reference. Prior to the formation of NASCAR in 1949 oval racing was nothing more than a rag-tag bunch of bootleggers out for their own enjoyment rattling around make-shift tracks in abandoned farmers fields.<BR/><BR/>You have also made the claim "Road racing has no place in American racing," and that "it never caught on and never will."<BR/><BR/>Perchance, if what you say is true, you could explain why American Le Mans Series television ratings <A HREF="http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/08/01/095161.html" REL="nofollow">have increased 31 percent</A> and average 82,250 fans in attendance.<BR/><BR/>What are they doing to increase interest simianfan, do they have topless dancers roaming the grandstands we don't know about?<BR/><BR/>If what you say is true why is it the Grand-Am Rolex Sports Car Series at Miller Motorsports park in July had it's largest attendance in the events 6 year history.<BR/><BR/>Go ahead asshat, spin your way out of those truths.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-28942601281310061612008-08-13T10:58:00.000-04:002008-08-13T10:58:00.000-04:00controlboy, look in the mirror before you figure o...controlboy, look in the mirror before you figure out what an idiot is. Road racing does not have any serious history in the US; it never grew to anything beyond niche status and was (and is) outclassed by oval racing. <BR/><BR/>I don't confuse opinion and fact; unlike you I know the differences. Road racing has no place in American racing - that is a fact because there is nothing in the way of serious combat for the win and the form never succeeded in the market competition of racing; it never caught on and never will. <BR/><BR/>Thus, there is no place for it in American racing. What is it about this fact that people don't want to accept? So what about Phil Hill? Mario Andretti succeeded in racing because he mastered the ovals.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-20138136633267901192008-08-13T10:54:00.000-04:002008-08-13T10:54:00.000-04:00Marc, revisionist history IS that poster's comment...Marc, revisionist history IS that poster's comment. Oval track racing long preceded those road races you mention and were <EM>always</EM> far more popular. <BR/><BR/>In summation Marc, you're a liar.<BR/><BR/>There is no place for road racing in American racing - that is a fact. Accept it.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-90433176813271925802008-08-13T03:36:00.000-04:002008-08-13T03:36:00.000-04:00monkeesfan - "anonymous, you're engaging in revisi...monkeesfan - <I>"anonymous, you're engaging in revisionist history. In America oval racing from the start has been the premeire form of racing, from the old high-banked board ovals to midgets (which used to be the biggest form of racing in the country) to eventually Indycars to stock cars. Road racing was always a niche."</I><BR/><BR/>Actually there is no "revisionist history" on view in his/her comment.<BR/><BR/>What you actually view is yet another example of simianfan showing just how big of a monkey's ass he is.<BR/><BR/>The first organized auto race in America took place on November 28, 1895 over an 87.48-km (54.36 mile) course, with Frank Duryea winning in 10 hours and 23 minutes.<BR/><BR/>Sports car racing on road courses flourished from 1947 thru until today (note that's pre-NASCAR) in various forms.<BR/><BR/>In summation monkeesfan... you're a blithering idjit!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-55918764941608208782008-08-12T18:17:00.000-04:002008-08-12T18:17:00.000-04:00Those people have not been a stock car fan for at ...Those people have not been a stock car fan for at least 10 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-17308206088820950892008-08-10T22:37:00.000-04:002008-08-10T22:37:00.000-04:00Love the road racing-not sure I want to see more o...Love the road racing-not sure I want to see more of it, though. As for monkeesfan, he is an idiot. He cannot differentiate between fact and opinion, and constantly confuses the two. Road racing has a long and rich history in this country in open-wheel, stocks and sports cars, and to call that racing uncompetitive by nature is utterly baffling. I guess he'll have to tell Phil Hill, Dan Gurney, Mario Andretti, et al that they were involved in a sporting enterprise sans any competition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-52481984570401949622008-08-10T16:10:00.000-04:002008-08-10T16:10:00.000-04:00anonymous #26, how do road races seperate the men ...anonymous #26, how do road races seperate the men from the boys? And to compare them to the plate races and say road racing is better is an insult to reality - the plate races <EM>require the racers to fight each other, not try to keep out of the weeds.</EM> It isn't luck, it's racers making moves that determine plate races; in road racing it's all luck to gain spots because the nature of road racing stops prolific passing. Road racing <EM>never</EM> showcases any serious skill level.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-75293283631332385792008-08-10T13:21:00.000-04:002008-08-10T13:21:00.000-04:00Love the road racing - as boring as the ovals have...Love the road racing - as boring as the ovals have been, I am really looking forward to the excitement of the road courses. Watched the race yesterday and was not disappointed at all - great race so looking forward to today's race. As a previous poster said, this gives some of the better road course drivers a chance to shine.<BR/>CarolynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-35682650428972984532008-08-10T01:23:00.000-04:002008-08-10T01:23:00.000-04:00man I tell ya...Poole, if nothing else....can writ...man I tell ya...Poole, if nothing else....can write a few lines and stir up more S*&%$ than fly fishin in a hornets nest. If you like road courses...watch it...root for your driver....if you dont..have a drink and hit the lake. Its Nascar racin, which means put on a show, sell stuff for sponsors, employ a bazillion writers, MRN and PRN reporters, sirius radio talk show host, tv folks, etc....charge customers for everything under the sun AT the race, and walk away bitchin about how you got ripped off by Nascar. Like it or not...the France family is brillant..we pay them for the right to bitch about how they run the show.....road course or no road course....I bet Poole, Brian France, the drivers, the ringers, the sponsors, the tv announcers, or anyone else really gives a damn how everyone feels about road courses when they go to the bank on Monday.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-24669748585108893402008-08-10T00:37:00.000-04:002008-08-10T00:37:00.000-04:00I look forward to the two road course races every ...I look forward to the two road course races every year. They tend to be two "separate the men from the boys" races. I don't think anyone is suggesting that NASCAR drop the ovals. But two road course races mixed in the schedule isn't something to whine about. We all know the author hates them, but by his logic, why don't we drop anything not a 1.5mile cookie cutter. Oh, and bring back the Southern 500. That'd be great, eh D? <BR/><BR/>To be honest, I enjoy the road course races much more than the plate races. Any racer will tell you that luck plays a huge role in the outcome of any race. But the luck factor is disproportionate at the plate tracks. Who's lucky enough not to get caught up in the big one. Who's lucky enough to jump in the lane with the best push 500 feet from the finish line, etc.<BR/><BR/>Road course races give some of our sport's more talented drivers a chance to showcase their skills. And earn points over less diversely skilled drivers. More power to'em. Always looks like a helluva workout when you watch the in-car cameras at Sonoma or The Glen. <BR/><BR/>As a fan who's been bored with most of the racing this year (and feel it's mostly a result of the CoT), I'll actually watch Sunday's race (well, record it, then watch it to skip the 2 hours of commercials).<BR/><BR/>Let's go racin' at The Glen!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-51317883823037985662008-08-10T00:13:00.000-04:002008-08-10T00:13:00.000-04:00lloyd, we saw lead changes nd three-abreast racing...lloyd, we saw lead changes nd three-abreast racing at Fontana - we didn't see it at Watkins Glen.<BR/><BR/>anonymous, you're engaging in revisionist history. In America oval racing from the start has been the premeire form of racing, from the old high-banked board ovals to midgets (which used to be the biggest form of racing in the country) to eventually Indycars to stock cars. Road racing was always a niche. <BR/><BR/>Also, road racing is not competitive. It <EM>can never be competitive becase of its very nature.</EM><BR/><BR/>That's how it can be stated that road racing has no place in NASCAR or any form of American racing. <BR/><BR/>"Who would get the additional dates?" You mention Kentucky.Monkeesfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14522953722006761283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24366637.post-50610628391767772222008-08-09T23:32:00.000-04:002008-08-09T23:32:00.000-04:00What about that noted road racer and senior citize...What about that noted road racer and senior citizen Morgan Shepherd finishing the race and just barely a lap down. Kudos to Morgan. Why hasn't he gotten more recognition in the media?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com